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Revisiting A Voynich Prize
- Revisiting A Voynich Prize
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Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Mark Knowles > 17-11-2021, 07:47 PM
There was a thread on this topic from some time ago, but it has long since been closed.
I was reading about the many prizes that there are in Mathematics and my thinking came back again to why there shouldn't be a prize for Voynich decipherment.
Maybe some people believe that prizes should not be awarded in Mathematics or any field and likewise should not be rewarded for Voynich research. But if one thinks that it is right to have them in Mathematics, but not in Voynich research then one has to ask why.
It is often suggested that a prize would attract the wrong kind of people and just lead to more nonsense theories wasting researchers time and distracting from good research. However does this happen with Mathematical or other prizes? I don't doubt they also receive plenty of nonsense theories. Why do they have prizes if prizes are such a bad idea?
From a personal point of view if I manage to decipher the manuscript and there is no financial reward of any kind at the end of it I will feel cheated. I have put a lot of time into it and it has been enjoyable, but that shouldn't preclude some financial benefit. Academics doing research in many areas make a living from it, so it does not seem radical that people researching in this area should be precluded from making any money out of it.
Ultimately any such prize would have to be funded from public donation or by a private individual. But if such finance existed it does not make sense to me for it to be turned down.
I am aware that there is strong opposition to this idea, nevertheless I thought I would reintroduce the question and I daresay I will raise it again in the future. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Koen G > 17-11-2021, 08:05 PM
I don't oppose the idea, but I wonder if in the case of the VM is would help. The Voynich has an extremely strong intrinsic appeal, and one would be surprised to know how many people have secretly been working on some VM theory.
For me, the balance of having a prize on solving the VM would be positive if this would attract more academics to the cause. If the only effect it had would be to increase and intensify the crazy, I would be against it.
The next logical conclusion would be that the prize should be substantial in order to also appeal to academics. Let's say hypothetically if Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk (more likely) put a million dollar on it.
But in that case, when the prize is not some loose change but the value of a house and more, the stakes are also higher. Who would decide if it was solved? Now already there are a few dozen people who claim the honor of being the one who solved it. This will get even worse if there's money on the line.
Moreover, I think "cracking" the VM will be done by someone who can build upon the work of many others. Imagine after ten years of work you decide to publish everything you found so far, without actually cracking the code. And this is enough for someone else to realize how it should be cracked, even though he did only 10% of the work. It is your life's work that made this possible , but the other person will be the one getting a million.
After this winding monologue, I have reached a conclusion for myself: a prize on solving the VM would be a bad idea because I do not believe it will be solved by an individual. If it is solved, it will be by combined efforts. Additionally, it may be harder to determine whether the VM is actually solved, while mathematical proof is, well, mathematical proof. This may be why mathematics lends itself to such prizes, when the solution is found, it will be clear. This would work for breaking "modern" codes too, but not necessarily for an enigmatic historical document.
But let me rephrase it as some questions:
- How much should the prize be?
- What will be required for the prize to be won?
- What will you do if the person who won the prize did not actually do most of the work?
To give a concrete "bad" example, imagine how much worse the Cheshire media storm would have been if there had been money on the line. If the prize committee is as easily swayed as the editors of Romance Studies, he'd now be rich. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
farmerjohn > 17-11-2021, 10:50 PM
(17-11-2021, 07:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was reading about the many prizes that there are in Mathematics and my thinking came back again to why there shouldn't be a prize for Voynich decipherment.
Feel free to present your own award in Voynich research field. Other than you I can think only of Beinecke or some rich individual who can be interested in such prize
(17-11-2021, 07:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From a personal point of view if I manage to decipher the manuscript and there is no financial reward of any kind at the end of it I will feel cheated. I have put a lot of time into it and it has been enjoyable, but that shouldn't preclude some financial benefit. Academics doing research in many areas make a living from it, so it does not seem radical that people researching in this area should be precluded from making any money out of it.
There will surely be some valuable indirect awards which will cover all the expenses of the decipherer. Better job offers or possibility to become well-known media person are the most obvious ones.
And a big financial reward may sometimes do more harm than good. See for example people winning in lotteries or slot games.
(17-11-2021, 07:47 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is often suggested that a prize would attract the wrong kind of people and just lead to more nonsense theories wasting researchers time and distracting from good research. However does this happen with Mathematical or other prizes? I don't doubt they also receive plenty of nonsense theories. Why do they have prizes if prizes are such a bad idea?
It is important that these theories don't block the society. For example big number of theories have almost paralyzed respective reddit thread, but have minor affect on voynich.ninja.
(17-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Who would decide if it was solved?
The presenter of the price will decide. If he is ready to invest 1M in wrong theory then let it be, the others will just have fun. In the end there is huge number of boxing federations, each one with it's own "world champion", the Earth is still spinning somehow.
(17-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Additionally, it may be harder to determine whether the VM is actually solved, while mathematical proof is, well, mathematical proof.
The original proof of the FLT is more than 100 pages in length. Actually, it is the proof of conjecture that (in conjunction with other works) implies FLT, and it also contains an error, which is corrected in two following works. So I can assure that number of people capable to understand and test whatever Voynich solution will be much bigger than number of people capable of verifying FLT "mathematical proof".
(17-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Moreover, I think "cracking" the VM will be done by someone who can build upon the work of many others. Imagine after ten years of work you decide to publish everything you found so far, without actually cracking the code. And this is enough for someone else to realize how it should be cracked, even though he did only 10% of the work. It is your life's work that made this possible , but the other person will be the one getting a million.
This is the situation with FLT. Wiles spent 7 years working on it, presented the proof, found an error, and technically the problem was closed by work of Wiles and Taylor. However, it is Wiles who got all the rewards and if you ask any random person who's proved the FLT, the answer, no doubt, will be just "Wiles"
I just hope we will avoid counting percentages in Voynich solution. The recent discussion of amount of Ventris/Kober input was very upsetting. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Mark Knowles > 18-11-2021, 03:56 AM
(17-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For me, the balance of having a prize on solving the VM would be positive if this would attract more academics to the cause. If the only effect it had would be to increase and intensify the crazy, I would be against it.
The next logical conclusion would be that the prize should be substantial in order to also appeal to academics.
Who would decide if it was solved? Now already there are a few dozen people who claim the honor of being the one who solved it. This will get even worse if there's money on the line.
Moreover, I think "cracking" the VM will be done by someone who can build upon the work of many others. Imagine after ten years of work you decide to publish everything you found so far, without actually cracking the code. And this is enough for someone else to realize how it should be cracked, even though he did only 10% of the work. It is your life's work that made this possible , but the other person will be the one getting a million.
Many of the problems that you highlight apply equally well to Mathematical or other prizes and they manage to resolve them, so there is no reason to think they could not be resolved with respect to the Voynich.
I think a prize would increase the interest from academics and non-academics. And clearly we know from the history of Voynich research that both academics and non-academics have sometimes produced flawed theories. I think a prize would increase both the crazy and the sane research. It would also increase publicity for the Voynich so attract good researchers and bad. I know it would motivate me to try even harder, which from the point of view of some others may or may not be a good thing.
I think initially any size of prize be it €100 or €100,000 would be of value. A rich individual could create such a prize, but it could also be crowdfunded.
Often prizes can be shared across multiple people be it a relatively small number of people.
It seems to me that a non-solution is not too difficult to identify, especially as they have the same kinds of flaws. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Mark Knowles > 18-11-2021, 01:23 PM
(17-11-2021, 10:50 PM)farmerjohn Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Feel free to present your own award in Voynich research field. Other than you I can think only of Beinecke or some rich individual who can be interested in such prize
There will surely be some valuable indirect awards which will cover all the expenses of the decipherer. Better job offers or possibility to become well-known media person are the most obvious ones.
And a big financial reward may sometimes do more harm than good. See for example people winning in lotteries or slot games.
It is important that these theories don't block the society. For example big number of theories have almost paralyzed respective reddit thread, but have minor affect on voynich.ninja.
I think crowdfunding such a prize would be a good route. However it is important that the award of the prize be decided by respectable experts such as at the Beinicke. Otherwise the prize could easily be perceived as a scam.
I have some degree of scepticism vis a vis better job offers or other opportunities materialising. Maybe I am too sceptical. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Hider > 18-11-2021, 01:52 PM
According to reports on the Internet, a billionaire philanthropist from the Netherlands promised a reward of 3 million euros.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Professor of Horticulture recently received the American Botanical Council (ABC) James A. Duke Award.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Mark Knowles > 18-11-2021, 04:04 PM
(18-11-2021, 01:52 PM)Hider Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to reports on the Internet, a billionaire philanthropist from the Netherlands promised a reward of 3 million euros.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I could find any more information about that prize, so I would be inclined to assume that there isn't much behind the story. Do we have the name of this supposed billionaire?
Yes. I know about the Botanical Award. That's why I think Yale/the Beinicke are probably the only ones who could determine who wins such a prize if it exists. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
davidjackson > 18-11-2021, 07:05 PM
I think a cash reward by a bunch of amateurs would be counter productive - it would attract more crank theories and probably drive academics even further away from the matter.
Now, if a prestigious international body (Medieval Academy of America he hints, nudging Lisa Fagin Davies in the ribs?) were to setup a professional prize where the reward was mainly professional recognition, and maybe a small cash prize, then that might help to quietly bring academics back into the field.
Maybe some sort of award could be setup, like the Haskins Medal, for outstanding work in the field of Voynich research. Rather than one big award, recognise that it's going to be a series of incremental steps over time as we progress towards a fuller understanding. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
Koen G > 18-11-2021, 07:42 PM
Some award that recognizes excellence of research sounds more attractive to me than a single prize for "solving" the MS. Especially if it is judged reliably. But I don't think it is strictly necessary, as I said the VM has a large inherent appeal. -
RE: Revisiting A Voynich Prize
ReneZ > 18-11-2021, 08:11 PM
Why attract people who want money?