cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 28-08-2021, 08:36 PM
(28-08-2021, 01:36 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="cvetkakocj@rogers.com" pid='47081' dateline='1630026414']
Koen, thank you for this favour.
Although EVA was not perfect, I was able to recognize enough words to convince me that the language of the VM was medieval Slovenian, which was much different than Slovenian language today.
MarcoP > 29-08-2021, 09:45 AM
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somebody who is not familiar with Slavic language, would have hard time understanding how one sentence can have a string of EVA 'dy' endings
tavie > 29-08-2021, 04:26 PM
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. Translation of the VM should be the last step, not the first step. Many of those who boasted about the translation of a page or even a sentence, have been discredited right away. The Stična Codex, written about the same time as the VM (between 1428 and 1440) in Slovenian language in Latin letters, had been studied by many linguists before the translation was accepted. Hopefully I will acquire a group of Slovenian linguists who will tackle this. For now, I am very grateful to Dr. Alenka Čuš, for her advice on Slovenian language, as well as to Dr. Duša Krnel Umek for her expert advice on Slovenian ethnology.
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many of those who boasted about the translation of a page or even a sentence, have been discredited right away.
tavie > 29-08-2021, 04:50 PM
tavie > 29-08-2021, 05:02 PM
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my long Grammar article (which is probably too boring for those who want translation, rather then explanation how I had adopted EVA alphabet, how Slovenian language relates to other languages) I already answered on many questions you are raising.
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somebody who is not familiar with Slavic language, would have hard time understanding how one sentence can have a string of EVA 'dy' endings
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I reject most is Currier's reasoning to claim the VM is written in different languages. There are certain topics that require different style of writing: poems are usually written in the first person singular, or in a form of a dialogue with God; the instruction and recipes would most likely be written in second person, imperative; the story would most likely be told in past tense. All these could change the endings in the words.
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 30-08-2021, 02:07 AM
(29-08-2021, 09:45 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somebody who is not familiar with Slavic language, would have hard time understanding how one sentence can have a string of EVA 'dy' endings
The best way to help us understand is sharing some actual evidence; in this way, things can also be kept short and clear. In Takahashi's EVA transliteration I find two 10-word long -dy sequences:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lines 38/39 qokeedy qokeedy qokedy qokedy qokeedy ldy / yshedy qokeedy qokchdy olkeedy
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lines 14/15 cheedy otedy cthedy otedy qoteedy shcthedy qoeekeedy deedy / tchedy lsheedy
Could you please show images of the longest similar sequences you have seen in Slovenian manuscripts?
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 30-08-2021, 05:47 AM
(29-08-2021, 04:26 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, my the words DAL and DAR attracted my attention, since they were also used in reversed order. I was not surprised that I found out that DAL in Armenian also means 'give'. What can the words alone tell about the language? I was not able to find infinitive DATI in the VM, but I found many forms of this word with similar prefixes and grammatical endings, as well as the strange combinations and phonetically written words, such as DY for DAJ, DEJ. It was not my manipulation of this word. In the VM, y stands for I and J (I just recently found another manuscript where two forms for final Y are used - 9-like for I, and Y-like for J. The semivowel was pronounced in different dialects differently, as it was observed by the Protestant writers of the 16th century. It is also not clear if any other larger texts in Slovenian in Latin letters existed, but in the first Slovenian grammar book in mid-15th century it was pointed out that the vowels had to be used. This is how DY became DEJ, DAJ. When you see a combinations DAR DAL (gift give) or DAR DAM (one way of reading Eva IIN is M, as Dr. Bax and some others pointed out). DAM (I give) is one of the most common VM words (over 600).(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. Translation of the VM should be the last step, not the first step. Many of those who boasted about the translation of a page or even a sentence, have been discredited right away. The Stična Codex, written about the same time as the VM (between 1428 and 1440) in Slovenian language in Latin letters, had been studied by many linguists before the translation was accepted. Hopefully I will acquire a group of Slovenian linguists who will tackle this. For now, I am very grateful to Dr. Alenka Čuš, for her advice on Slovenian language, as well as to Dr. Duša Krnel Umek for her expert advice on Slovenian ethnology.
No one is asking for a complete translation, or even a polished partial one. If it is ever solved, no doubt the solution will contain mistakes that are eventually ironed out by experts in the language. This is what happened with decipherments in the past. But no Voynich theory will ever be viewed as credible based on only identifications of individual words.
In particular, you mention grammar on your website and here. But how can the grammar of your solution be tested without having sentences to analyse to see if the grammar corresponds to medieval Slovenian?
(28-08-2021, 08:36 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many of those who boasted about the translation of a page or even a sentence, have been discredited right away.
That's exactly my point. These theories were discredited precisely because they were put to the test and they failed the test. Working through sentences is how to test a theory. What you have said here makes it sound as if you want your theory to avoid being tested. Fair enough if it's because you want to wait until the theory is more developed and robust...but then why promote it and say you are certain about your identifications if it's not ready for testing?
I'm repeating myself from earlier but: it is incredibly easy to find meanings of Voynich words in isolation without context. That's why the first hurdle for a theory is to provide the words in context, aka the full sentences. The aim is to show that the proposed identification is consistent with the target language's grammar and most importantly...that it makes sense. For the few theorists who have tried to tackle this hurdle, the result is always the same: a word salad that makes no sense in English, and likely neither in the target language. And that's why the second hurdle - translating the full context of those sentences via their paragraph/page - is seldom attempted.
But many don't even tackle the first hurdle of producing even a sentence. The reason is because they find their individual word identifications don't make sense when put together in a sentence. And then they rationalize this away by telling themselves "of course my discoveries are still correct; it's just that experts in the language are needed to put them all together".
I might be unfairly mischaracterizing your approach, but it sounds awfully reminiscent of the above. It sounds like you are saying here and on your site that while you have sufficient expertise for your identification of individual words to be certain, experts in medieval Slovenian are needed to read full sentences. If you are finding it hard to apply the system to full sentences, you should consider that it is not your knowledge of medieval Slovenian that it is at fault: it is the system.
Again, the crux of the issue is: full sentences and paragraphs are needed in order for a theory to gain credibility. This is the only way to demonstrate the system produces meaningful text consistent with both the target language's patterns and Voynichese's quirks. Any identifications of individual words, no matter how many, could always be coincidence. And not recognizing this sets you up for confirmation bias. You say theories have been "discredited" by early translation, but nothing discredits a theory more than confirmation bias.
I'll go through the first main findings in your article to illustrate this and the point I was making with #3 about being certain far too soon.
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 05-09-2021, 06:25 PM
Battler > 06-10-2021, 01:08 AM
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 06-10-2021, 03:24 AM
(06-10-2021, 01:08 AM)Battler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, "ldi" for "ljudi" is specifically the Ljubljana dialect, and at that, the modern Ljubljana dialect. I'm not sure that form existed at all in the 15th century. Granted, Stična is from near Ljubljana, so at least geographically it makes sense. Though it has to be considered that, Ljubljana being a major Urban center, it was likely subject to very rapid language change, so who knows how the Ljubljana dialect of the 15th century even sounded.I had not lived in Slovenia for fifty years so I am not aware that the youth in Ljubljana had adopted this 'pudgurski' speeč, spoken in my youth, and even before me for hundreds of years.