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Engineering your own voynich
- Engineering your own voynich
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RE: Engineering your own voynich
Ruby Novacna > 24-03-2025, 12:25 PM
Has anyone tried treating "FaiT Kzz" as "This is", the last word "Ka" as "it", "-yun" as "-ing", for example? What would that give? -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
nablator > 24-03-2025, 01:47 PM
(24-03-2025, 12:25 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anyone tried treating "FaiT Kzz" as "This is", the last word "Ka" as "it", "-yun" as "-ing", for example? What would that give?
Yes, there are some frequent patterns that are probably "the", "this" or "then" but I didn't manage to solve the 3 alphabets with such a short sample: there could be as much as 3 different ciphertexts for the same chunk of cleartext (depending on position modulo 3).
Also possible IMHO:
Tiiiig = the (most frequent word in the ciphertext)
Tiiiiz Ti = that
FaiT Kzz is repeated (once) and there it follows Tiiiig. -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
Scarecrow > 26-03-2025, 04:34 PM
Claude et.al note some clues:
The limited alphabet (ABEFGHIKLMNOPQRTUVXYZ) is mapped to a 5x5 coordinate grid
Each letter has a unique geometric position
Suggests potential coordinate-based transformation
Word Geometric Properties
Words have consistent geometric characteristics
Centroid and distance calculations reveal structured patterns
Potential use of coordinate-based encryption
Transformation Hypotheses
Detected potential arithmetic and geometric progressions
Suggests mathematical rules governing letter/word transformations
Key Findings:
The cipher likely uses a complex geometric transformation
Positional rules are mathematically structured
Letter placement follows precise computational rules -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
Aga Tentakulus > 26-03-2025, 05:24 PM
That's a nice theory.
Why a limited Alfabeth?
According to Koen's video, 13 symbols are possible. This also corresponds to a grid with coordinates 6x6=36. Why save, now everything is possible.
Disadvantage: Whether 5x5 or 6x6, you cut the text by 50%.
Now the question arises, if there is a recipe section, is it even possible to explain a recipe if there is so little text.
Actually, the text should not be smaller, but the same or longer. -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
nablator > 26-03-2025, 05:35 PM
(26-03-2025, 04:34 PM)Scarecrow Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The cipher likely uses a complex geometric transformation
Positional rules are mathematically structured
Letter placement follows precise computational rules
Evidence: trust me bro.
I have an almost non-ambiguous 3-way partition of the words of byatan's cipher in 26 different strings for each part, where the second and third parts can be empty, that works as a fully deterministic and reversible cipher.
EDITED:
The strings "aei" and "z" of ciphertext that can appear together with "" in both part 2 and part 3 are problematic, but these combinations ("aei" + "", "" + "aei", "z" + "", "" + "z") don't occur in the sample generated by byatan and don't have to occur in any case if the alphabet mapping is well chosen.
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RE: Engineering your own voynich
oshfdk > 26-03-2025, 06:06 PM
(26-03-2025, 05:35 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have a non-ambiguous 3-way partition of the words of byatan's cipher in 26 different strings for each part, where the second and third parts can be empty, that works as a fully deterministic and reversible cipher. The requirement for deterministic reversibility is, for the strings ("", "aei" and "z") of ciphertext that can appear in both part 2 an part 3, to represent the same cleartext in both positions 2 and 3.
I like it! Especially convincing given the last token is the only one of 2 characters long, just because the algorithm ran out of plaintext.
It's suggestive that there are 26 different strings for each of three positions, is this the most obvious split, or were you specifically aiming for 26 per slot? This can't be a static map over the English alphabet, unless the text is about foxes jumping over lazy dogs. Maybe the character encodings are updated at each turn according to some algorithm? -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
nablator > 26-03-2025, 06:34 PM
(26-03-2025, 06:06 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I like it! Especially convincing given the last token is the only one of 2 characters long, just because the algorithm ran out of plaintext.
It's suggestive that there are 26 different strings for each of three positions, is this the most obvious split, or were you specifically aiming for 26 per slot? This can't be a static map over the English alphabet, unless the text is about foxes jumping over lazy dogs. Maybe the character encodings are updated at each turn according to some algorithm?
That's the best I could do manually, my Hill Climbing program failed to improve my previous best attempt 27-23-22 on page 6 of this thread. I was aiming at 26 or less for each slot. I haven't worked on this since 2021 and suddenly found an improvement that reduces the numbers to 26-26-26. There may be a way to reduce the numbers, but it's impossible to know when the partition is correct, unfortunately.
I don't understand why you said that each of the strings in each column can't be statically mapped to the English alphabet. -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
oshfdk > 26-03-2025, 06:34 PM
Given a large number of suffixes like "yun" and "nuy" it does look more like three static mappings. Is there a split with fewer than 26 variants per slot? More like 26/23/20? -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
oshfdk > 26-03-2025, 06:37 PM
What do the counts look like for each column? Are there prefixes/infixes as frequent as yun/nuy? -
RE: Engineering your own voynich
nablator > 26-03-2025, 07:10 PM
(26-03-2025, 06:34 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given a large number of suffixes like "yun" and "nuy" it does look more like three static mappings. Is there a split with fewer than 26 variants per slot? More like 26/23/20?
I don't know. It's possible.
Quote:What do the counts look like for each column? Are there prefixes/infixes as frequent as yun/nuy?
Frequencies:
1st column:
0.1538 F
0.1325 Ti
0.1197 K
0.1154 m
0.0812 n
0.0684 T
0.0427 fa
0.0427 Ki
0.0385 q
0.0342 Fi
0.0214 fiii
0.0214 fi
0.0171 qii
0.0171 TI
0.0128 k
0.0128 b
0.0128 Fii
0.0085 t
0.0085 nii
0.0085 mii
0.0085 Tii
0.0043 kia
0.0043 fv
0.0043 fiin
0.0043 fii
0.0043 Kii
2nd column:
0.1368 a
0.1325
0.1154 m
0.1026 ai
0.0769 iii
0.0641 ae
0.0598 ei
0.0513 oo
0.0470 e
0.0299 aa
0.0256 v
0.0256 ooi
0.0214 z
0.0171 aee
0.0128 me
0.0128 ee
0.0128 aei
0.0128 aae
0.0085 o
0.0085 iiia
0.0043 eee
0.0043 azT
0.0043 ame
0.0043 aiie
0.0043 aai
0.0043 aaa
3rd column:
0.1325 yun
0.1239 g
0.0769 an
0.0726 z
0.0726 nuy
0.0726 aei
0.0598 r
0.0598 l
0.0470 iea
0.0470 T
0.0427 q
0.0299 iin
0.0256 b
0.0214 t
0.0171 K
0.0128 vinn
0.0128 ouy
0.0128 mn
0.0128
0.0085 uYnh
0.0085 pen
0.0085 k
0.0085 ben
0.0043 x
0.0043 amg
0.0043 aEg