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The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
- The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
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RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
davidjackson > 18-01-2021, 08:09 PM
If we look at the two figures:
They both wear an eight pointed crown
They both have waist length hair
They both have the same body shape
They are both in the same position, reaching out with the left and down with the right
They both have exaggerated hips and visible pudenda
The differences are in their surroundings and where they are holding the "thing". The body shape and position is identical in both case, it is the position of the thing and what they are standing on that changes.
Put into this context, I suggest they are the same person, but symbolising opposites; one is in the process of reaching out for the "thing", the other has put the "thing" behind her and continues to reach out for more.
What is the "thing"? Not a clue, but I suspect it symbolises something rather than actually being a tangible object.
Why the pudenda? I would also suggest that the obvious pudenda are there to show that these are supposed to be flesh and blood women rather than a "nymph" or spirit.
Why left handed? In a time when to be left handed was to be viewed with suspicion, why draw these people as left handed? At certain times and in certain places, to be sinister (left handed) was sufficient to attract unwelcome attention from the Inquisition and the like, and it was always viewed as a bit of a disability. Although the answer could just be that the nymphs on the left hand side of the page are lefthanded and the ones on the right righthanded, just because it was easier to draw them that way! -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
Koen G > 18-01-2021, 08:30 PM
As far as handedness goes, the VM does not seem to think in terms of left and right, as far as I can tell. Single objects are simply held in the hand furthest from the viewer, no matter which way the figure is facing. The nymph with the "other thing" is an important exception.
I don't know to what extent we can take the way genitals or pubic hair are drawn/not drawn into account. Looking at this subquire (Q13a), It seems to me that most nymphs whose stride is wide enough have some kind of line marking genitals or pubic hair. It also looks like someone (a later owner?) made efforts to erase such lines, perhaps most visibly on f76v. Therefore, I think the presence of these lines may be connected to the pose and the model. (Looking through the images, I am actually surprised at how many of them don't just have smooth barbie-doll groins). But the genital situation in the VM is complex and confusing, and maybe worth its own thread.
Focusing on the objects, there is also the label "held" by the nymph with the "other thing". She seems to be holding a word where her colleague is holding the spiked version of the attribute. -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
davidjackson > 18-01-2021, 08:57 PM
(18-01-2021, 08:30 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.She seems to be holding a word where her colleague is holding the spiked version of the attribute.
Well hurry up and translate that word so we know what they're on about
The word is okar, which appears 129 times throughout the corpus.
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we have another thingie. I wonder if it's supposed to be the same thing, but from a vertical perspective?
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f80r&q=f80r-53-36-257-295-2]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f80r&q=f80r-53-36-257-295-2)
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f80v&q=f80v-448-87-212-88-2]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f80v&q=f80v-448-87-212-88-2)
It could be....... Probably not, but there's no real way of telling I suppose
The ring under the first thingie is also duplicated being held by a second nymph next to the second thingie... ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
Linda > 18-01-2021, 10:50 PM
I think they are the same thing but the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. one is empty. Because a spindle turns on a vertical axis, it is like the Earth spinning in space, which makes up our days, so i take it as an indication of time.
I had struggled with the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. one because i kept thinking she used up all her time, but now i think the empty spindle means it takes no time to get to where she is facing, Cartegena is part of the bigger region of Murcia, which are the names i give these two.
The full spindle likely means it can take months to traverse the intended alternate route indicated, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the Black Sea at the Danube delta, which rises in Germany near Lake Constance. -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
Searcher > 18-01-2021, 10:58 PM
Ok, Koen. If those details really important, I have one of explanations. Although I accented that my fairy tale is just an invention, my supposition that this object can mean poppy seed capsule is real. I wrote about this in some thread, but it was quite long ago, I don't remember in which one.
Of course, it is not an absolute idea for me, but one of possibilities. I gathered images for comparison, to show why I think that it deserves to be one of explanations.
First of all, I want to compare all the "things" ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) which I consider may be the same object:
Yes, you can say that there are differences, but the weird similarities are noticeable, as well. Difference can be caused by the difference of stages. I placed the images below in sequence.
You can see that the first nymph hold a little flower, the next - hold an object that is similar to the "thing" with two petal-like objects, the third nymph holds the object that you call "the thing" with some kind of a spike, the fourth one holds the same object (without a spike) behind.
And pay attention that all the nymphs stretches the left hand whether it holds the object or not, but the main observation that the third and fourth nymphs look pretty similar, and they are placed on the neighboring pages. Of course, if the sequence is correct, these four nymphs, in general, can be qualified as the same subject, but on different stages or in different statuses. The first nymph has a loose uncovered hair which was the frequent indication of an unmerried girl, the second one, it seems, has some coiffure (picked hair), the third and fourth nymphs have some headresses and veils, which can speak of her higher status. So, the same, a flower and its capsule can also reflect its stages of growing and maturing. The first two stages is absolutely understandable, but if thw spike is really meaningfull, it also can be explained
![[Image: two-opium-poppy-papaver-somniferum-annua...709648.jpg]](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/two-opium-poppy-papaver-somniferum-annual-flowering-plants-different-sizes-rounded-capsule-radiating-stigmatic-rays-154709648.jpg)
Look at those two capsules. One of them has a spike, another, more mature - doesn't have, as it becomes drawn inside.
It can be noted that usually poppy seed capsule is depicted rounded, I also thought at the beginning that it looks like tulip and its pod. Why could the artist choose an unusual shape? I searched for a long shaped poppy capsules and found that a few of them fit. The most resemble capsules were of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but later I found that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sometimes also has a similar shape, while I don't know what it depends on.
The last three pictures are: Papaver dubium, Papaver rhoeas and the last - Papaver somniferum.
I tried to find ancient or medieval pictures where poppy capsules are elliptical, but for now I only found Minoan examples (Mycenaean ring seals) that depict oval shaped poppy capsules. Below, the three pictures from Mycenaean engraved ring seals are compared to an image engraving after an antique Greek cameo.
On that picture that is a copy of an ancient cameo, you can see that the goddess Nyx hold three poppy capsules stretching her hand in front of herself, the other two - behind, while I can't say whether it has meaning or not.
Links:
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RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
-JKP- > 20-01-2021, 03:32 AM
Good examples, searcher. -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
Linda > 20-01-2021, 06:36 AM
The poppy idea is interesting, especially the sequence. but it would make the nymphs tiny, and what would it mean to point or not point poppies in varying stages of dessication?
Re the spinning time idea, they also somewhat resemble hourglasses with sand running through them, at least the full ones with the dots on them, just kind of the opposite of an hourglass shape, fat in the middle instead? -
RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
ReneZ > 20-01-2021, 06:39 AM
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RE: The Thing as compared to the Other Thing
Searcher > 20-01-2021, 07:43 PM
(20-01-2021, 06:39 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The last illustration in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is quite remarkable. It is like a mini Voynich MS in itself.
I agree, there's something in this. I also wonder what that "creature" constructed of the two connected circles, a head, hands and one leg is.
It has all relevant content: herbs, sun, moon, busty nypmphs in weird poses, a wavy line and some connected circles of unclear purpose.
![[Image: MIDP89.4.2061.jpg]](https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/mi/original/MIDP89.4.2061.jpg)