geoffreycaveney > 13-09-2020, 04:10 PM
(13-09-2020, 09:47 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Geoffrey, looking quickly at a text in Basque, I don't see an agreement with Voynich.
geoffreycaveney > 13-09-2020, 04:24 PM
(13-09-2020, 10:11 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Don't do it man. Our problem right now is not "which language", it is "how is whichever language it is transformed into Voynichese". Counterintuitively, the latter needs to be answered first. But this needs more than simple substitution...
geoffreycaveney > 13-09-2020, 04:48 PM
(13-09-2020, 04:27 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-09-2020, 04:10 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.word length is the least of all our problemsI don't think of the length of words, but rather of their ending.
RenegadeHealer > 13-09-2020, 04:48 PM
MarcoP > 13-09-2020, 05:00 PM
(13-09-2020, 03:47 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, thank you for this analysis.
Your source for Linguae Vasconum Primitiae appears to be written in a more modern Basque spelling, not the author's original spelling in 1545. A short sample of the original with a comparison to modern spelling is presented You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I am not saying the original spelling will drive down the conditional entropy from 3 to 2, but it is worth noting the actual spelling of the original text.
geoffreycaveney > 13-09-2020, 05:01 PM
(13-09-2020, 04:48 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow Geoffrey — your post feels like someone reached into my head and wrote out a whole series of thoughts and perceptions I had about a year ago. It's uncanny to encounter someone who's been down the exact same little rabbit hole I have. Gavin Güldenpfennig here at the Ninja was the one who first inspired me to look into the Basque language as a possibility for the VMs. From there, it was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that made me wonder if there might be a match between Voynichese's rigid glyph positioning, and proto-Basque's rigid phoneme positioning. At one point I even made a chart based on Stolfi's core-mantle-crust paradigm, where I tried to assign a Voynichese glyph (in each word position) to each possible proto-Basque consonant (in each word position). I remember entertaining the possibility that EVA=[daiin] was the Basque word jaun (meaning "sir").
I then looked at the earliest Basque language texts by Bernard Etxepare (XVI century), and tried to match the high-frequency words with my chart's supposed Voynichese equivalent. Alas, common medieval Basque words did not seem to transform easily into common valid Voynichese words in the VMs. And that's where I abandoned the project.
I'll fully admit I went at this project wholly unscientifically, which is why I never shared it with the VMs community. I started with the result I hoped for, and then tried to make the data fit the result, which I'm well aware is circular logic / begging the question. For better or for worse, I've never been successfully socialized to be disgusted by this sort of "taking a stab at it". I think there's nothing wrong with inquiring based on nothing but a hunch, as long as: A) I never forget it's merely a hunch, B) I know when to quit when my hunch isn't panning out, and C) I don't try to draw any factual conclusions from this preliminary inquiry. It was recreation for me, and it was a pilot program, to see if a more scientific study of Basque-Vonichese correspondences was warranted. (I failed to support the idea that it was.) Some may say that I wasted time and effort that could have been better spent. I see it a little differently: I had an adventure and learned some new things, even if I never found the buried treasure. I certainly have no regrets learning more about the Basque language, even if it didn't necessarily get us any closer to solving the VMs.
I'll upload the chart I made, if it would be helpful to you, Geoffrey.
Koen G > 13-09-2020, 05:11 PM
(13-09-2020, 05:00 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, these are details and do not make a substantial difference. Basque is and was written with a totally ordinary writing system producing a totally ordinary character conditional entropy close to 3.
DONJCH > 13-09-2020, 05:15 PM
(13-09-2020, 04:10 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is a Basque translation of the New TestamentHmm, I can certainly cherry - pick a few Voynichesque words from that short sample:-
geoffreycaveney > 13-09-2020, 05:19 PM
(13-09-2020, 11:47 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-09-2020, 02:08 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.May I ask what other types of evidence within the ms itself that you would look for to generate a hypothesis about the possible language in which the text is written?
I would like you to demonstrate:The idea is that even without a candidate language, you should be able to demonstrate the principles of the underlying language. Starting from internal evidence only I want you to argue how you got to the idea that [r] = /r/ or [l] = /l/. Can you demonstrate that they fit into a class like liquids? That clusters such as [lk] = /lt/ make sense? That [chedy] = /hik/ "you (erg)" makes sense? What is "you" doing in the text? What verbs does it relate to?
- Why a particular glyph should be identified as a vowel.
- Why a particular glyph should be a plosive/fricative/liquid/nasal/semivowel.
- Why particular words or affixes should be considered specific parts of the grammar.