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Were the images drawn before or after the text?

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• Were the images drawn before or after the text?

• Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  daviduartep > 21-01-2026, 05:10 PM

  Hello folks,
  
  Looking at the images, it appears to me it would be easier to draw the images first and then fill the text, and text do seem to conform to the images, not the other way around.
  
  I only found one instance where the image appears to obscure the text:
  
  
  
  But it appears they only made the last character smaller, not the image is over the text itself.
  
  What do you think?
  
  Thanks!

• RE: Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 21-01-2026, 06:22 PM

  (21-01-2026, 05:10 PM)daviduartep Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looking at the images, it appears to me it would be easier to draw the images first and then fill the text, and text do seem to conform to the images, not the other way around.

  
  That seems to be the consensus view around here.  But not universal...
  
  

  Quote:I only found one instance where the image appears to obscure the text ... But it appears they only made the last character smaller, not the image is over the text itself.

  
  That is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Please, folks -- when you post an image, give the page number too... Thanks...)
  
  There are several other cases like that one, where the text runs into the drawing.
  
  One may think that shows that the drawing was done last.  But it makes less sense that the Artist would draw the figure over the text, than that the Scribe would write the text over the figure.  For the latter, there is an excuse: when the scribe started writing the word, he miscalculated how long it would be; but he had to write it in that space, anyway.  Or only break it at certain spots.  (In my view, Che is a single "letter" of the language; splitting before the e would be as wrong as hyphenating "archbishop" between the "c" and the "h".)
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  daviduartep > 22-01-2026, 02:31 AM

  Apologies Jorge for not mentioned the page number, this was my first post, I was unaware of that. Thanks for linking that site, I was looking the manuscript from a random pdf I've found on the web, those prints are much better!
  
  Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot of sense! I was checking these because I find odd that a lot of text is very close to the images.
  
  Thanks!

• RE: Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  Koen G > 22-01-2026, 09:04 AM

  No worries!
  
  As Stolfi says, there is a pretty good consensus that images came first. In the case of the plants in the herbal section, the plant takes up its space without hesitation, while the text does all kinds of weird tricks to fill up the remaining space as well as possible. Kind of like this:
  
  

• RE: Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  Rafal > 25-01-2026, 01:46 PM

  I would say images first vs text first isn't an universal thing in VM.
  
  In case of plants the images were most probably first and the scribe later did the tricky job of putting the words between stems and petals.
  
  But have a look at the page f81r. It is Quire 13, the balneology section:
     
  
  Can you see the weird shape of the text on the right side?
  It isn't aligned to the right but rather  "curving" (I miss English words to describe it properly).
  
  For me it is an argument that some picture was planned to be inserted there but ultimately it didn't happen.
  It could mean that in the Quire 13 picture were added after the text.

• RE: Were the images drawn before or after the text?

  nablator > 25-01-2026, 02:46 PM

  (25-01-2026, 01:46 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can you see the weird shape of the text on the right side?

  
  Can you? Look closely. In nearly half of the lines the ink was getting smeared where the last glyphs were written. Clearly the quality of the parchment was not good enough for writing: whether it was wet or greasy I don't know, but they had to stop writing there as soon as it happened.
  
  Something was spilled on the verso side:
  
     
  
  Does the difference between the ink smearing and the outline of the stain on different sides suggest that the verso side was written first? The ink appears to have been dry at the time of the spill on the verso side. The most likely scenario IMHO is that the verso was written, then a liquid was spilled, it was quickly absorbed with a cloth and the ink was only slightly damaged. Then the recto side was written, carefully avoiding the area of the spill, but the liquid slowly seeped through the parchment, extending beyond the visible stain, surprising the scribe in unexpected areas.
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