-JKP- > 13-07-2020, 09:22 PM
(13-07-2020, 02:29 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Mark Knowles > 13-07-2020, 09:48 PM
(13-07-2020, 09:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-07-2020, 02:29 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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I would have thought that there are lots of relatively simple methods by combining the use of filler text with another simple rule to produce Voynich like text where the morphological regularities observed in Voynichese words are much more a function of the filler than the text.
-JKP- > 13-07-2020, 09:57 PM
Mark Knowles > 13-07-2020, 09:57 PM
-JKP- > 13-07-2020, 10:00 PM
Mark Knowles > 13-07-2020, 10:19 PM
(13-07-2020, 09:57 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wasn't talking theoretically, Mark.
Since you say it should be relatively easy, I would like to see an example. I'm sure the others would too. Create four or five pages of text that have the same properties as the VMS text.
I would not suggest taking whole tokens (similar to those in the VMS) and simply repeating them because if you do it that way, it does nothing to demonstrate that VMS "filler" text might be meaningless. It would have to be constructed out of "components" (however you wish to define those) that have Voynichese properties in order to fulfill the assertion that filler would be easy to create.
Mark Knowles > 13-07-2020, 10:34 PM
(13-07-2020, 10:00 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think anyone would disagree that a large proportion of filler text could be used to mask a message. Steganography has been around for a long time and also existed in the Middle Ages.
What is at issue here is whether convincing filler can be created that has the same properties as Voynichese.
-JKP- > 13-07-2020, 10:53 PM
Quote:The term "steganography" goes back to Trithemius in the late 15th century. Do you have any examples of filler text being used in the early 15th century or before?
-JKP- > 13-07-2020, 10:57 PM
Quote:I don't like to be dictated to. I have no intention of producing 4 or 5 pages of text as that would be quite an effort with even the simplest of rule. I should add that if I go down that avenue I will be expected to provide a full decipherment of the Voynich or the argument about filler text would mistakenly not be considered valid.
Quote:I would have thought that there are lots of relatively simple methods by combining the use of filler text with another simple rule to produce Voynich like text where the morphological regularities observed in Voynichese words are much more a function of the filler than the text.[/font]
Mark Knowles > 13-07-2020, 11:01 PM
(13-07-2020, 10:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:The term "steganography" goes back to Trithemius in the late 15th century. Do you have any examples of filler text being used in the early 15th century or before?
Steganography takes many forms. It can be filler text. It can be a diagram that hides letters within the way it is drawn. It can be a page of text with letters in the vertical direction forming a hidden message (similar to anacrostics) and numerous other variations.
The latter example existed in the Middle Ages, before the 15th century. The concept existed long before there was a term to describe it.
So steganography in a number of forms existed pre-15th century.
I do not know if the specific steganography scenario you describe (a high proportion of meaningless filler text) existed in the 15th century or earlier. I have not seen any examples so far but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.