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qo- vord formation
- qo- vord formation
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qo- vord formation
ThomasCoon > 19-04-2020, 12:07 AM
Hello all, long time no see! I've been looking at qo- vords and would like to hypothesize a paradigm to form them:
[q] + [o/a/y] + [k/t/p/f] + [ch/che/chee/Sh/ee/etc.] + [o/a/y] + [r/l] + [d/s] + [o/a/y] + [n/in/iin/iiin/m/im/etc.]
In this paradigm, a group may be present or not (e.g. qotchol vs. qotcho). My theory is that presence or absence of certain characters may be input for a corresponding decoding table.
I am assuming that all the gallows characters are functionally equivalent, following Mary D'imperio (1978 pgs. 24-25) and also Marco Ponzi who put them into the same Character class You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I also assume this about the (usually) interchangeable ch/Sh/ee group.
Here are some examples:
qotchoiin
qotcham
qopchor
qokShol
qotchol
qoteeol
qokcheo
qokShy
qokchy
qotchy
qoteeey
qokeey
qokey
qoky
qoty
qokeeo
qotcho
qodaiin
qosaiin
qotaiin
qokaiin
What are your thoughts? -
RE: qo- vord formation
ThomasCoon > 19-04-2020, 12:24 AM
To be more explicit on a few points:
- I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
- I believe that ch=Sh=e=ee=eee; there is no difference between them. The encoder used different amounts of "c" shapes to mask the code, but they are functionally equivalent.
- Same with n/in/iin etc.
- I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
-
RE: qo- vord formation
-JKP- > 19-04-2020, 02:21 AM
Hello, Thomas, a pleasure to have you back. Hope you're staying safe. -
RE: qo- vord formation
Anton > 19-04-2020, 03:02 PM
Hi Thomas, nice to see you on the forum again! -
RE: qo- vord formation
-JKP- > 19-04-2020, 03:38 PM
(19-04-2020, 12:24 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
To be more explicit on a few points:
- I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
- I believe that ch=Sh=e=ee=eee; there is no difference between them. The encoder used different amounts of "c" shapes to mask the code, but they are functionally equivalent.
- Same with n/in/iin etc.
I have different ways of looking at the VMS text. In fact, every couple of months I force/challenge myself to find a new way of interpreting it (after all these years, I have zillions of versions). But... one of the ways I've looked at it is this (see the top left of f67r ):
cheodaiin aekeey s ar air s oar cheey dair cThey
Possibillity 1: cccccciii cciiccc c ci cii c cci ccccc cciii iiccc (simplest form)
Possibility 2: cccoociiii ciciiccci c cii ciii c o cii ccccci ciciii ciiccci (one of many possible ways to interpret the outliers like d and a or d and o as separate chars)
Possibility 3: cccoociiii ciciiccci c cii ciii c o cii ccccci ciciii c||ccci. (gallows could be stop char, signal char, or modifier char)
(I have about a dozen other possible "simple" interpretations, for example, "a" could be split into c + i, but the two examples is enough to get the idea across. I also have versions where I have collapsed similar patterns into one, similar to what Thomas is describing. I also have more complex interpretations. I even have a color-coded version that I created to see if the VMS text could be interpreted as embroidery patterns.)
One way to look at it is as a numeric code (several different kinds of numeric codes, in fact). There are many possibilities... binary, Roman numerals, Indic-Arabic numerals interpreted into letters, and on and on...
This does not necessarily interpret into an alphabet (it could be other things... references, symbols, etc.) but... if it does, it might have to be configured in a way that creates about 20 variations. This could easily be done with the simplest form above (I'm not going to tell you how, I'm curious as to who can see a straightforward way to do it, and possibly one that is different from the one I use). - I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
-
RE: qo- vord formation
ThomasCoon > 20-04-2020, 01:34 AM
(19-04-2020, 03:38 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(19-04-2020, 12:24 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
To be more explicit on a few points:
- I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
- I believe that ch=Sh=e=ee=eee; there is no difference between them. The encoder used different amounts of "c" shapes to mask the code, but they are functionally equivalent.
- Same with n/in/iin etc.
I have different ways of looking at the VMS text. In fact, every couple of months I force/challenge myself to find a new way of interpreting it (after all these years, I have zillions of versions). But... one of the ways I've looked at it is this (see the top left of f67r ):
cheodaiin aekeey s ar air s oar cheey dair cThey
Possibillity 1: cccccciii cciiccc c ci cii c cci ccccc cciii iiccc (simplest form)
Possibility 2: cccoociiii ciciiccci c cii ciii c o cii ccccci ciciii ciiccci (one of many possible ways to interpret the outliers like d and a or d and o as separate chars)
Possibility 3: cccoociiii ciciiccci c cii ciii c o cii ccccci ciciii c||ccci. (gallows could be stop char, signal char, or modifier char)
(I have about a dozen other possible "simple" interpretations, for example, "a" could be split into c + i, but the two examples is enough to get the idea across. I also have versions where I have collapsed similar patterns into one, similar to what Thomas is describing. I also have more complex interpretations. I even have a color-coded version that I created to see if the VMS text could be interpreted as embroidery patterns.)
One way to look at it is as a numeric code (several different kinds of numeric codes, in fact). There are many possibilities... binary, Roman numerals, Indic-Arabic numerals interpreted into letters, and on and on...
This does not necessarily interpret into an alphabet (it could be other things... references, symbols, etc.) but... if it does, it might have to be configured in a way that creates about 20 variations. This could easily be done with the simplest form above (I'm not going to tell you how, I'm curious as to who can see a straightforward way to do it, and possibly one that is different from the one I use).
Hey -JKP-!
Thanks for the reply - good to see you again too! You're right that there could be many possibilities to this... Your c/i breakdown is particularly intriguing. Well, I will keep trying on my end!
- I believe that functionally k=p=t=f
-
RE: qo- vord formation
MarcoP > 20-04-2020, 12:00 PM
Hi Thomas,
you might want to check Stolfi's word grammar that was recently discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
If I understand correctly, while Stolfi's grammar accepts all the q-types in the 1000 most frequent types, the grammar you propose rejects these:
qockhy
qockhey
qolchey
qolchedy
qolkeedy
qocthy
qockhol
qolkeey
qolkain
qocthey
In order to accept these words, I guess your model only needs two updates:
1. allowing l before the gallows
2. adding benched-gallows to the set of gallows
By allowing a "mantle" before the gallows/core, Stolfi can also accept rarer words like: qoekeey, qekchdy, qoekol. -
RE: qo- vord formation
-JKP- > 20-04-2020, 04:36 PM
(19-04-2020, 12:07 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
Here are some examples:
qotchoiin
qotcham
qopchor
qokShol
qotchol
qoteeol
qokcheo
qokShy
qokchy
qotchy
qoteeey
qokeey
qokey
qoky
qoty
qokeeo
qotcho
qodaiin
qosaiin
qotaiin
qokaiin
...
If we take your examples and combine them with some of the concepts I mentioned in my first post, here is another way to look at it (imagine that o and y are also functionally equivalent):
[font=Eva][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Eva]qoky[/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Eva][font=Eva]qoty[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva]qokey[/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qokeeo[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva]qokeey[/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qotcho[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qokchy[/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qotchy[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qokShy[/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qokcheo[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Eva]qotee[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]ey [I am confident that this vord belongs in this group and not the following group]
qoteeol [It's hard to format on a forum post, but I would put this to the side of the above group rather than below it, so they look like brothers rather than cousins.
qotchol What distinguishes them from the previous group is the pairs (something I blogged about a few years ago).]
[font=Eva]qokShol[/font]
[font=Eva][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Eva][font=Eva]qopchor[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Eva][font=Eva][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Eva]qotcham[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=Eva]qosaiin [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] <-- Note how the s shape is contained within the d (that's why I shifted list order from less complex to more). I'm not sure if this has been mentioned previously.[/font][/font]
[font=Eva]qodaiin[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] <-- [/font][/font]
qokaiin[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] <-- It is more obvious, of course, that the k shape is contained with the t.[/font]
qotaiin <--
[font=Eva]qotchoiin[/font] -
RE: qo- vord formation
Gavin Güldenpfennig > 23-04-2020, 03:45 PM
@Thomas Coon
You wrote, that you´ve found q-words, where EVA-a and EVA-y are following the q. Can you give us some examples? I didn´t find such words, but that may would give us a hint, which letter the EVA-q could be.
I´m thinking about the Irish language, where "h" is used after specific consonants and for the plural of words, which start with a vowel.
And if I´m right with my Celtic language theory exactly this feature would be represented by the EVA-q.
In the sound system I´ve developed EVA-a is a short "u", EVA-o is a short "i", an EVA-y is an epenthetic "n", which means a "n-vowel combination". -
RE: qo- vord formation
RenegadeHealer > 23-04-2020, 05:27 PM
@JKP, I'm intrigued by your efforts to construct an alphabetical order for Voynichese characters, by which all vords could be indexed. Have you fully fleshed out an alphabetical order and a set of rules for how it was determined? Also, are you aware of any such effort by any other VMS researchers? This is a project I considered putting together last summer. I think a "Voynichese dictionary" of all types that occur in the VMS, with vords prominently marked for their number of tokens, and the folios / sections / Currier languages of most frequent occurrence, could be a very helpful tool for finding patterns in the VMS text.