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• RE: Vessel linework

  Linda > 14-03-2020, 07:07 PM

  Could it be that the claw one is only part of something, maybe the gilded part of something made of glass?
  Here is a possibility along those lines, imagine if the roll on the bottom were not there.
  
  

• RE: Vessel linework

  MarcoP > 09-01-2026, 04:35 PM

  (14-03-2020, 01:11 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These jars are among the most fascinating illustrations in the whole manuscript... We mentioned several partial parallels for a few features, but we still have to find something really convincing, in my opionion.
  
  Various foot-shapes where discussed in the thread about "The containers in the Pharma section". For instance:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the attachment seems to be missing. I attach the detail again (f.26r of the "mnemonic bible" Wetmore MS1, Germany, late XV Century, originally pointed out by VViews).
  
     

  
  We discussed these images years ago. Here is an updated version of what I think the text says.
  Current link to the page (bottom right): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  In the red text I read “Regina Saba”.
  
  In the first black-ink line: “Non … aromata”.
  Vertically at the right of the vessels: “de regine plurimis quae attulit” (the many things of the queen that she brought).
  Below the vessels: “de allatione lignorum, auri, argenti” (of the bringing of wood, gold, silver).
  
  The passage appears to be from the First Book of Kings
  
  

  Quote:10:10 edit ergo regi centum viginti talenta auri et aromata multa nimis et gemmas pretiosas non sunt adlata ultra aromata tam multa quam ea quae dedit regina Saba regi Salomoni
  10:11 sed et classis Hiram quae portabat aurum de Ophir adtulit ex Ophir ligna thyina multa nimis et gemmas pretiosas
  
  10:10 And she gave the king an hundred and twenty talents of gold, and of spices very great store, and precious stones: there came no more such abundance of spices as these which the queen of Sheba gave to king Solomon.
  10:11 And the navy also of Hiram, that brought gold from Ophir, brought in from Ophir great plenty of almug trees, and precious stones.

  
  My guess is that the two vessels are meant to contain spices (aromata).
  
  Previous attempt at reading the text: 
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• RE: Vessel linework

  JoJo_Jost > 11-01-2026, 07:58 AM

  As I have already explained, the feet of the ‘vessels’ bear similarities to the roots of the plants standing next to them and not only that.
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• RE: Vessel linework

  Jorge_Stolfi > 11-01-2026, 12:54 PM

  (12-03-2020, 10:54 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Expanded family

  
  Those are not all the Pharma jars, right? Not even those of the Pharma 1 (f88r -- f89v1)? I don't see the bottom one of f89v2, the one that is said to be the rightmost "giant jar" on the central rosette.
  
  By the way, has it been discussed before that the jars of Pharma 1 are very different from those of Pharma 2 (f99r--f102v1), except those on the last two pages?  Suggesting that Pharma 1 was created after Pharma 2?
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Vessel linework

  Koen G > 11-01-2026, 02:46 PM

  No, apparently I just did those I felt like doing. This was 5 years ago and I don't remember much of it to be honest

• RE: Vessel linework

  Bluetoes101 > 11-01-2026, 03:25 PM

  (11-01-2026, 12:54 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, has it been discussed before that the jars of Pharma 1 are very different from those of Pharma 2 (f99r--f102v1), except those on the last two pages?  Suggesting that Pharma 1 was created after Pharma 2?

  
  I'm treating them as completely different things while I am looking at them. 
  There's very simple "jars", ones with tripod feet, "perfume bottle" looking things, "candle stick" looking things.
  For example The tripod ones may be like the top right example, with the bottom example feet. 
  They are both Chinese incense burners. I currently don't think the tripod feet examples are apothecary jars and probably not some of the other things also. Don't know if this will lead to "later" or just "different". 
  
     

• RE: Vessel linework

  Jorge_Stolfi > 11-01-2026, 04:47 PM

  (11-01-2026, 03:25 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Don't know if this will lead to "later" or just "different".

  
  I conjectured that Pharma-1 was created after Pharma-2 because there seems to be an evolution of the style of jars, from simple cylindrical ones in most of Pharma-2 to the more elaborate ones in Pharma-1; and the evolution seems to have started on the last two pages of Pharma-2 -- specifically on the verso of folio f102, the last of Quire 19.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Vessel linework

  MarcoP > Yesterday, 09:36 AM

  (11-01-2026, 03:25 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For example The tripod ones may be like the top right example, with the bottom example feet. 

  
  The Etrurians made bronze cistae which are also cylinders with three feet. Bonus point, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is inscribed with a single word (Suthina). As far as I know, the cista shape was not transmitted to the middle ages and was rediscovered by archeologists much later, so I doubt there can be any actual relationship. It's probably just a simple way to create a container, a cylinder is possibly the most obvious shape and three feet are guaranteed to all touch the ground even if they are not perfectly aligned. 
  
     

• RE: Vessel linework

  Jorge_Stolfi > Yesterday, 11:02 AM

  (Yesterday, 09:36 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's probably just a simple way to create a container, a cylinder is possibly the most obvious shape and three feet are guaranteed to all touch the ground even if they are not perfectly aligned.

  
  A cylinder is good for solid stuff also because it is a good compromise between stability (which would favor a wider base), shelf space efficiency (which prefers a tall straight cylinder) and getting stuff out (which would favor a wider mouth).
  
  And indeed three feet make sense in an age of tables topped with rough planks.  If the feet are properly shaped, they still would allow the jars to be packed tightly on the shelf, with enough space between them to allow grabbing and pulling out any jar...
  
  For liquids maybe one would want glass bottles.  Those are more easily made, by blowing, if they have round bottoms.  Which is the reason for the straw basket of the classical Chianti wine "fiasco".  Then one may want a metal or wood base to hold the bottle.
  
  (IIUC that Italian wine bottle is the origin of "fiasco" in many other languages to mean "total failure".  Presumably by some story when someone wanted wine but got only the empty bottle...)
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Vessel linework

  Koen G > Yesterday, 01:26 PM

  I wonder if that particular pharma vessel was awkwardly meant to have six feet. The spacing and perspective would be off, so it's a guessing game of "what are they trying to show here?"
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