-JKP- > 13-04-2020, 04:39 PM
(13-04-2020, 03:57 PM)elieD Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I talk about this hypothesis in my paper: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Basically, the VMS is an outlier, but other documents in a lot of other languages are also outliers for good reasons. It's interesting to know why these documents are outliers: mainly they are (sometimes romanized) retranscriptions of oral languages
elieD > 13-04-2020, 05:18 PM
(13-04-2020, 04:31 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here's the Wiki on the preprint server:
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RenegadeHealer > 13-04-2020, 07:48 PM
-JKP- > 13-04-2020, 08:12 PM
Davidsch > 13-04-2020, 08:41 PM
bi3mw > 14-04-2020, 11:37 AM
(13-04-2020, 08:41 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text in the VMS seems to be constructed around a system.I would say that perhaps the text is not constructed around a system, but by a system ( unknown so far ). The idea of an early planned language ( Friedman ) I consider to be daring, but possible. Hildegard von Bingen has shown it to a certain extent with her Lingua Ignota (including syllable extensions, adding sibilants and the invention of whole words).
If we could translate that system into human communication, we can say that it is a language.
Davidsch > 14-04-2020, 05:43 PM
(14-04-2020, 11:37 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-04-2020, 08:41 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text in the VMS seems to be constructed around a system.I would say that perhaps the text is not constructed around a system, but by a system ( unknown so far ). The idea of an early planned language ( Friedman ) I consider to be daring, but possible. Hildegard von Bingen has shown it to a certain extent with her Lingua Ignota (including syllable extensions, adding sibilants and the invention of whole words).
If we could translate that system into human communication, we can say that it is a language.
If one criterion for language is intentional communication, then "demarcations" like Lingua Ignota do not fulfil this criterion. This would also apply to the VMS. So whether such creations are to be called language in the strict sense of the word can be disputed.
edit: The fact that in Lingua Ignota letters are replaced by an imaginary alphabet is not really relevant. The method is so simple that it should be seen more as a "cover-up" than a serious attempt at encryption.
voynichbombe > 14-04-2020, 07:02 PM
(13-03-2020, 03:07 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(12-03-2020, 09:14 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the original topic of this thread, I can only pose this rhetorical question: is the Voynich text compatible with a medieval cipher?This is a good (rhetorical) question. As far as I know, before Alberti there were only rudimentary approaches ( simple substitution ) and even an Alberti-like code would probably have been decoded already. So one can only assume that, if there is an encryption, it is based on a completely unknown, unique system. This would not surprise me. So the question is what non-anachronistic method(s) would be possible.
bi3mw > 14-04-2020, 07:59 PM
(14-04-2020, 05:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you mention one, there are many different ways of communication, some are considered, and some not. But finally this is a matter of agreement: when is Pluto a star and when not?To take the example of the invented words in the Lingua Ignota, here a conscious departure from well-known languages such as Latin or German was made. Known languages are based on the agreement of the meaning of words. Invented words offer no value because known words already exist in the other known languages and no conceptual expansion takes place. At least not in the Lingua Ignota where only known words are "translated". If this "artificial language" is supposed to make sense, it is only that the circle of recipients of a text should not be expanded but drastically reduced. The changed grammar does the rest here. The question is no longer whether Pluto is a star or not, but what Pluto is in its "translation". So the planned language is anti-communicative and if the VMS is based on such a language, then it is obviously about demarcation and not about the will to communicate. This may be a banal statement in itself, but it does raise the crucial question: if a manuscript, like the VMS, is unique but is not communicated, is there really a language behind it? Language serves the purpose of communication, but where this does not take place, a fundamental requirement for it is not fulfilled. If an intention of "non-communication" is assumed (no marginal notes, no accompanying text or similar), this is especially true. What remains is a construct that pretends to be a language but is not in the true sense. This would be true regardless of whether the authors assumed that the text contains meaningful information or not.
Davidsch > 15-04-2020, 03:09 PM
(14-04-2020, 07:59 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(14-04-2020, 05:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you mention one, there are many different ways of communication, some are considered, and some not. But finally this is a matter of agreement: when is Pluto a star and when not?To take the example of the invented words in the Lingua Ignota, here a conscious departure from well-known languages such as Latin or German was made. Known languages are based on the agreement of the meaning of words. Invented words offer no value because known words already exist in the other known languages and no conceptual expansion takes place. At least not in the Lingua Ignota where only known words are "translated". If this "artificial language" is supposed to make sense, it is only that the circle of recipients of a text should not be expanded but drastically reduced. The changed grammar does the rest here. The question is no longer whether Pluto is a star or not, but what Pluto is in its "translation". So the planned language is anti-communicative and if the VMS is based on such a language, then it is obviously about demarcation and not about the will to communicate. This may be a banal statement in itself, but it does raise the crucial question: if a manuscript, like the VMS, is unique but is not communicated, is there really a language behind it? Language serves the purpose of communication, but where this does not take place, a fundamental requirement for it is not fulfilled. If an intention of "non-communication" is assumed (no marginal notes, no accompanying text or similar), this is especially true. What remains is a construct that pretends to be a language but is not in the true sense. This would be true regardless of whether the authors assumed that the text contains meaningful information or not.