Options

f96v

Index
f96v
f96v

Anton > 20-01-2020, 02:10 AM

The leaves resemble spades.

From Pritzel for Sambucus nigra:

Schipken
Schibbecke
Schebicken
Schiebken

Almost the same for Sambucus racemosa.

If that's the common root with "Schippe", may be a match for leaves' mnemonics.
RE: f96v

-JKP- > 20-01-2020, 02:51 AM

Unfortunately, Sambucus is not viney, and I think the VMS drawing depicts a vine rather than a shrubby tree like Sambucus. The VMS leaves are not a good match for Sambucus, but if the spade-shaped leaf is mnemonic, I guess they don't have to be.

There are a lot of plants with leaves like that (and with seeds like that). It's hard to know if it's mnemonic or literal.

Here's what I have on my list...

It's a reasonably good match for either Smilax excelsa or Smilax aspera, which are viney, have clusters of red berries, and spade-shaped leaves:

.

Smilax asper image courtesy of Carsten Niehaus, Wikipedia. Botanical image is Smilax aristolochia

[font=Arial]Dioscorea communis has many of the same properties, but the leaves are closer to heart-shaped. BUT, it does have yam-shaped tubers, which might be important:[/font]

[font=Arial]. [/font]

[font=Arial]Image credit Hechtonicus, Wikipedia[/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial]Tamus edulis is essentually the same as Dioscorea communis.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][font=Arial]Similar but not quite as good as the above:[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][font=Arial]Maianthemum convallaria looks like this but it only has two leaves, not a whole row of them.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial][font=Arial][font=Arial]Farther afield...[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial]Also [font=Lucida Grande]Tinospora cordifolia, although this is an Indian plant and Tinospora smilacina is Australian.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial][font=Lucida Grande][font=Arial]Basella alba is Indian.[/font][/font][/font]
Cocculus carolinus is North American and the leaves are variable. Sometimes spade-shaped, sometimes palmate.
[font=Arial]Smilax aristolochifolia is Central American.[/font]

[font=Arial]--------------------[/font]
[font=Arial]Thinking of it in a different way (not as a vine, but as a tall plant that maybe can't fit on the folio and thus was bent over)...[/font]

[font=Arial]Because the VMS berries or seeds are on the ends, I also was reminded of plants in the Rumex family that have spear-shaped leaves and clusters of distinctive red seeds at the ends.[/font]

[font=Arial]BUT, if the shape and size of the root are literal, and if it's a vine, then [font=Arial]Dioscorea communis (and secondarily Smilax) gets my vote.[/font][/font]
RE: f96v

Linda > 20-01-2020, 03:39 AM

Perhaps the leaf clusters themselves are portrayed, the leaves as a group are indeed shaped like spades, even if the individual leaves aren't. In comparison with the fruit clusters, the sizing could work.

The root doesn't appear to match either though, nor does the fruit really. Can you think of a mnemonic that would make the root plump when it normally seems to look like upsidedown umbrella ribs?
RE: f96v

Anton > 20-01-2020, 02:12 PM

I do not see this depiction as viny, it's rather shown that it is bending, or it is shown that there are two sides opposing each other. Looks as if deliberate. May be some secondary mnemonic.

I have no idea of the root.
RE: f96v

Linda > 20-01-2020, 03:26 PM

Bendy because of heavy fruit maybe? The root, don't know what that could be.

However there seems to be a likeness on f99r that looks like it might indicate tendrils, if so then that doesnt seem to work.
RE: f96v

asteroidlindgren > 21-05-2020, 10:26 PM

Hi Everyone,

New here to the forum, so apologies if this has already been mentioned:

In the botanical drawing of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I was reminded strongly of strawberry blite, Blitum capitatum.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Without wanting to sway anyone too much, I feel the relative size of fruit and leaf and the basic leaf shape are quite a good match. However I don't remember the root being anything like those in the illustration, and while the fruits bear a fair likeness, they are not terminal as in the illustration. It is an edible plant. Has this been mentioned before?
RE: f96v

-JKP- > 21-05-2020, 11:18 PM

I have Chenopodium capitatum on my list of possibilities, it does match the VMS drawing reasonably well, but I have reservations about it because it only grew in North America in the Middle Ages.
RE: f96v

Koen G > 21-05-2020, 11:28 PM

It does check some boxes, especially the shape of the leaves in combination with the red/pink clusters.
However, strawberry blite branches from the base, while the VM plant behaves more like a vine (kind of?) which is why I'd still prefer one of the vines mentioned by JKP. Also I feel like the fruits are drawn more like the kind of berries found on various vines.
RE: f96v

Anton > 22-05-2020, 12:55 PM

(21-05-2020, 11:18 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have Chenopodium capitatum on my list of possibilities, it does match the VMS drawing reasonably well, but I have reservations about it because it only grew in North America in the Middle Ages.

However, it's listed in Pritzel, and this with AHD (old high German) references.
RE: f96v

-JKP- > 22-05-2020, 02:10 PM

(22-05-2020, 12:55 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(21-05-2020, 11:18 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have Chenopodium capitatum on my list of possibilities, it does match the VMS drawing reasonably well, but I have reservations about it because it only grew in North America in the Middle Ages.

However, it's listed in Pritzel, and this with AHD (old high German) references.

Thousands of foreign plants were imported into Europe by the middle of the 16th century.

After Columbus came back with samples from America, there was almost a hysteria to get foreign plants and bulbs, especially those with commercial potential. It's amazing how fast they started growing sunflowers in europe (I think it was less than two decades after America was discovered).

Do you have a link? Did Pritzel mention a specific date? It seems more likely it would be the 16th century rather than the 15th century.

There are numerous Chenopodium species that are native to Europe, but not Chenopodium capitatum.

I haven't been excluding North American plants (I like to keep an open mind), but they are lower on my list.
Next Oldest Next Newest

f96v

Index

f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v

RE: f96v