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Oresme plus Shirakatsi

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• Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  R. Sale > 14-12-2019, 11:04 PM

  Oresme + Shirakatsi = VMs cosmos
  
  Back in 2014 the comparison of the central part of the VMs cosmos (f68v) with the 'Oresme' image, BNF Fr. 565 fol. 23, by E. Velinska was a major discovery for VMs investigation. The significant discrepancy between the two representations was the outer wheel and curved spokes of the VMs illustration.
  
  Earlier this year, Linda (I believe) was the first to post to this forum an image of a diagram relating to the Eight Phases of the Moon, based on the work of Anania of Shirak / Anania Shirakatsi, that has a very similar structure of a wheel with eight curved spokes.
  
  It seems reasonable to suggest that a combination of these two illustrations will produce a cosmic representation that has all the structural parts found in the VMs cosmos.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  ReneZ > 15-12-2019, 01:15 PM

  (14-12-2019, 11:04 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Earlier this year, Linda (I believe) was the first to post to this forum an image of a diagram relating to the Eight Phases of the Moon, based on the work of Anania of Shirak / Anania Shirakatsi, that has a very similar structure of a wheel with eight curved spokes.

  
  These images were already presented to the Voynich amateur world years ago by David Scheers.
  That was the first instance that I am aware of, but who knows, others had already seen them?
  
  These two points just go to show how dangerous it is to argue that this person or that was the first to do this or that, because chances are strongly in favour of being wrong.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  Linda > 15-12-2019, 04:19 PM

  Here is the blog post by David from 2014 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  However i do agree that the pattern in the vms could be a reference to these works, and to Oresme's as well for its part in the pattern. A mnemonic bibliography, so to speak.
  
  Previously i had considered the bibliography of the vms to include the works of Homer, Ovid, Virgil, and others, in that they all mention the Deucalion & Pyrrha story, which i considered to be referenced in the vms as well. Likewise this pulls in Plato and Aristotle, who discuss the realities of the myth. This is consistent with the time period of the vms creation, as the Platonic Academy was founded shortly after the Council of Florence in 1438.
  
  Recently i was looking at the nymph headresses and was concentrating at the roll on head precursor that Koen posted from the Germanicus Phainomenon, in the Virgo depiction. I found a text only version of it, skimmed it, and landed on a page that mentions Deucalion. It doesn't prove anything, but it still makes me feel like there is a consistent theme to the works referenced, that of explaining the universe, the world, and its changes through time.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  R. Sale > 17-12-2019, 11:36 PM

  So credit where credit is due, works for me. I was only intending to say that I wasn't trying to present it as my own discovery.
  
  On the other hand, as a VMs investigator for a number of years, and interested in the cosmos for some time, this was the first I had seen of the Shirakatsi diagram.  And if the diagram has been around all this time, why has it taken so long for it to reenter the discussion? 
  
  The VMs cosmos is a combination of Oresme and Shirakatsi, That explains it. No need for further investigation. Just copy Shirakatsi with a camera obscura and fill in Oresme by hand. That will give the same structure as the VMs. But it doesn't explain the appearance. That takes more work.  The VMs is clearly not a copy.
  
  Another example of image combination (IMO), is the VMs critter, most recently presented by JKP as a potential representation of the Agnus Dei.
  The VMs version of the Agnus Dei is a minimalist representation of the structure of the illustration from the "Apocalypse of S Jean" (1313) combined with the form of the Golden Fleece as used (1430) by Philip the Good, duke of Burgundy . And the connection is substantiated by the presence of that book in the duke's library.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  R. Sale > 21-12-2019, 11:57 PM

  Thanks for the reference. I looked through the article. In fairness, it has to be said that he hits a lot of nails before getting to the Shirakatsi diagram.
  And what it does say then isn't much: "google text search like this:  ananias 7 th century phases of the moon"
  
  Does he call the "Eight Phases of the Moon" diagram by Anania Shirakatsi a structural equivalent of the outer portion on the VMs cosmos?
  Does he suggest any modification of the Shirakatsi diagram to make it more similar to the VMs cosmos?
  
  Given that this article and the posting of E. Velinska, regarding the VMs cosmos and the Oresme illustration in BMF Fr. 565, both took place in 2014, perhaps they were unaware of each other's investigations. 
  
  I am also not aware that the combination of Oresme and Shirakatsi as a structural  equivalent to the VMs cosmos has been suggested subsequently.
  
  That shared structure consists of an outer circle connected to an inner circle by eight curved spokes, from Shirakatsi. And the inner circle of the wheel from Oresme is a cloud-based cosmic boundary with 43 undulations. And in the center of a simplified geocentric cosmos is an inverted T-O Earth. And the Earth is surrounded by stars.
  
  Is there some alternative combination of illustrated sources that has all the same structural elements as the VMs cosmos? And then there is the visual appearance of the VMs cosmos. Each of the parts has been visually, but not structurally, altered - significantly different in appearance and intentionally changed. This is how the disguises, illusions and deceptions in some VMs illustrations can be reconciled. First the relevant parts must be found, then the proper parts can be combined to match the VMs illustrations. And then it helps to have a plausible explanation as to how those parts came together.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  Linda > 24-12-2019, 07:22 PM

  Others have noted similarities with diagrams from a 1420s Arnenian manuscript with the vms, which includes astronomy texts by Shirakatsi as well as later compilations which might include reference to his works. It is mentioned on Rene's and David's sites as well. Here is an image compilation by Marco:
  
  
  
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]http://hdl.library.upenn.edu/1017/d/medren/9951496233503681
  Hit the provenance tab for more info[/font]
  
  I agree that Shirakatsi would be a good possible reference. He was also a geographer (and his map has been compared with the Rosettes page) but there are some problems in attributing the moon diagram as the exemplar for the vms cosmos.
  
  1. Mirror image
  2. 4 spokes not attached to central circle
  3. No moon or sun
  4. Possibility of having seen exemplar?
  
  I couldnt find much about other copies, the one from which this animation is made appears to originate from a Russian -Armenian encyclopedia. It is not from the 1420s compilation.
  
  
  
  Some possible answers to the problems:
  
  1. Mirror image could have been used with regard to sky vs earth turning idea presented by Oresme. 
  
  2. Possibly the 4 spokes attached to the cloudband could mean to say that both the earth turns and other things move as well, like the planets, as well as the constellations (through precession) over a much longer period of time.
  
  3. It could be that the symbol for eternity is simply used, to denote consistent continuous movement. This symbol has been used in various cultures over time. There are many other curved spoke diagrams in the 1420s compilation although most of the others do not have 8 spokes. There was also a perpetual motion machine outlined in 10th century India that also looks similar.
  
  4. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I did see that Shirakatsi's works were included in textbooks, so there would presumably be many copies made over time.[/font]
  
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The problem remains that until we can read the vms text there is no way to prove the connections one way or another.[/font]

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  voynichbombe > 25-12-2019, 02:24 PM

  Hi,
  
  the mirror image could be the result of a Camera Obscura being used for copying the image.
  
  Best
  
  Gert

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  Linda > 25-12-2019, 05:20 PM

  Hi Gert, I am not sure why everyone thinks a camera obscura is necessary to copy this design, my tool of preference would be a compass. Is it just to explain the mirror image? A camera obscura would have been more useful to copy the Oresme design, but which obviously was not employed.
  
  
  
  It doesn't seem like it was employed for the spiral part either. Seems more freehand to me, except for the actual circles.

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  voynichbombe > 25-12-2019, 06:00 PM

  Hi Linda,
  
  yes, I was only referring to the fact that the camera obscura produces a mirrored and flipped (upside down) image. It was reportedly used as drawing aid, but has many optical defects like distortion. I guess it will be almost impossible to tell if this was at use, here. Just a quick thought.
  
  Best
  
  Gert

• RE: Oresme plus Shirakatsi

  -JKP- > 25-12-2019, 06:33 PM

  It was very common for medieval illustrators to mirror images.
  
  If something is drawn with a compass, it's particularly easy to mirror it.
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