MarcoP > 22-11-2019, 08:25 PM
Torsten > 22-11-2019, 08:38 PM
(22-11-2019, 02:27 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Probably unsurprisingly, I too have an interest in the question of ch vs sh: but at the same time I have a deep mistrust of low-level interpretations that first require Voynichese 'words' to be literally words (i.e. that they must necessarily follow an explicitly language-like grammar) - this seems to me to be something we should be testing rather than assuming.
(22-11-2019, 02:27 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What isn't so well known (I think) is that chd and shd are vastly more common in B pages:
(22-11-2019, 02:27 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.PS: it's also not widely mentioned that shch and chsh are equally abhorred in both A and B (shch A = 6, chsh A = 4, shch B = 6, chsh B = 5), a strongly consistent behaviour
nickpelling > 22-11-2019, 09:28 PM
Davidsch > 23-11-2019, 03:48 PM
ReneZ > 23-11-2019, 06:06 PM
nickpelling > 23-11-2019, 06:23 PM
Torsten > 23-11-2019, 09:45 PM
(22-11-2019, 09:28 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You discussed Voynichese words containing both ch and sh, true: but there you also asserted that ch and sh are constrained by the shape of the characters next to them.With the exception of 'i' and 'e' the same glyphs occur rarely repeated. So it comes as no surprise that 'words' like <chchy> or <shshy> are rare.
I find this hard to understand, given that ch and sh have such a strong affinity for being followed by e and ee, yet have such a strong phobia for being followed by sh and ch.
I'm therefore not sure I can accept this kind of shape-driven argument when ch and ee have such similar shapes.
Torsten > 23-11-2019, 10:25 PM
(23-11-2019, 03:48 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, I think it seems fair, to conclude that it's currently impossible to reach a consensus based on what we see on sh_/ch_ and what we can count in the VMS.
nickpelling > 23-11-2019, 10:36 PM
Torsten > 23-11-2019, 11:58 PM
(23-11-2019, 10:36 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EVA ee can follow ch and sh (indeed, this is almost mandated in B pages), but the almost-visually-identical ch and sh cannot.
(23-11-2019, 10:36 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At the core of Voynichese's behaviour lie a number of sets of deep-rooted adjacency asymmetries, of which the ch/sh complex is just one.
(23-11-2019, 10:36 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Whatever the actual reason for those asymmetries, the claim that they are simply due to some kind of shape harmony seems to me to be grossly inadequate.