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• Plant 52r

• RE: Plant 52r

  Monica Yokubinas > 15-08-2019, 08:51 PM

  Not sure if this book is in the voynich ninja library, but very similar plant pictures and roots to the Voynich in some depictions. The main illustration I wanted to share was on the Mandrake or Mardragora so i'll leave the link here, as not sure to download picture from the Digital Bibliotek library. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sorry that is the only title I could find for the book is dated 1520 - 1530. you will find some root systems intriguing as weil.

• RE: Plant 52r

  -JKP- > 15-08-2019, 11:41 PM

  The way the ginger root is executed is not at all like the very deliberate stylization of the VMS root in terms of the round-reaching symmetrical non-natural posture.
  
  Plus, I've been trying to compare the VMS hard-to-identify plants to the VMS plants that are very natural looking and quite accurate and there's a significant difference in the way they appear to be approached.
  
  
  When an illustrator in another manuscript draws a fish for a root (mnemonic for an aquatic plant) they are doing a different kind of drawing than when they do a natural root. Some roots, like the root of Solomon's Seal, are extremely distinctive and recognizable. They don't need mnemonics and don't usually have them unless the illustrator was creating an excess of mnemonics (like illustrators who put a dragon beside every plant because they like drawing dragons). An aquatic plant might have a very ordinary root that looks like any other root, so then the mnemonic helps in identification.

• RE: Plant 52r

  Helmut Winkler > 16-08-2019, 07:49 AM

  Many botanists tear out plants with their roots to look at them, the Voynich botanist might have done something similar and arranged the plants on a table before he drew them

• RE: Plant 52r

  davidjackson > 16-08-2019, 09:26 AM

  OK then, it probably is ginger.
  

• RE: Plant 52r

  bi3mw > 16-08-2019, 10:39 AM

  My ID with "Pulsatilla patens" was quite serious. Tucker and Janick have a background in agriculture / horticulture and could be on the right track here. (regardless of their other theories). Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure if "Anemone patens" and "Pulsatilla patens" are the same species. The informations are different. "Pulsatilla patens" is certainly also present on the european continent.
  
  A strong root makes Pulsatilla patens very robust and is a special feature of this plant. The overall appearance is quite similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

• RE: Plant 52r

  Davidsch > 16-08-2019, 12:27 PM

  Over the years it has been very clear, to me, that identification of the herbals is an endless road into eternity.
  
  Those who have much more botanical knowledge than me, tried it as well, and came up with Mexican, Indian, Chinese, Austrian, etc. -plantnames and that exemplifies that there are many possibilities. When there are so much openings, you need to ask yourself if it is realistic to continue such a quest.
  
  To me, trying to find a name for a herbal drawing in the VMS is like trying to find a formula for making gold from lead: if you really believe it, there are always followers and kings that are willing to fund your research. But with our current knowledge we should know better.
  
  If you really are interested in the herbals, it would be better to invest in the identification of the plant details and try to match those individual parts with historical similar details. For example a root of VMS plant A can be similar to root of plant B in another ms.  (The entire plant does not have to be a 100% match, which of course never is.) This way you could establish a scientific way of matching individual parts and perhaps one can write a paper on comparing those herbals in similar manuscripts and draw conclusions finally on for example the copy process as well. It is just an idea.

• RE: Plant 52r

  Linda > 16-08-2019, 04:15 PM

  (16-08-2019, 10:39 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My ID with "Pulsatilla patens" was quite serious. Tucker and Janick have a background in agriculture / horticulture and could be on the right track here. (regardless of their other theories). Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure if "Anemone patens" and "Pulsatilla patens" are the same species. The informations are different. "Pulsatilla patens" is certainly also present on the european continent.
  
  A strong root makes Pulsatilla patens very robust and is a special feature of this plant. The overall appearance is quite similar to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

  
  The genus [i]Pulsatilla[/i] is sometimes considered a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. under the genus [i]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font][/i] or as an informally named "group" within Anemone subgenus Anemone section Pulsatilloides.[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font]
  
  
  Thus I think it could be the same.
  
  The part that looks similar seems to be the sepal. Other than that i don't see the visual similarity, unless the rest is indeed mnemonic and/or a discussion of religious topics. It is known as Pasque flower, known to bloom at Easter, so is already related in its own mythology with religious topics, and in this way i could see it being involved.
  
  In terms of religious aspects, we have in the vms rendition:
  
  the ecclesiastic crown looking flower (the shape and number of petals dont match the pasque flower's 6 pointy ones)
  
  three pronged leaves (dont match although pasque flower leaves could be thought of as collections of pronged leaves, so could work in that way)
  
  three root parts inside a circle, these could all be seen as trinity related (but don't really match the rhizomes of pasque flower)
  
  Growing apart and coming together could refer to the Great schism i mentioned earlier, which had been in place from 1054 to 1439, although the coming back together didn't really stick, but given the age of the vellum, it seems like it might have been created right when that happened, but before it all fell through in 1453.
  
  That part came from two other roots, could this be a reference to new and old testaments?
  
  The branching of the leaves could denote the more recent papal schism in the west.
  
  The new shoot could be a reference to the new Protestantism re Wycliffe and Hus.
  
  1530 drawing, earliest i could find for now.
  

• RE: Plant 52r

  bi3mw > 16-08-2019, 04:47 PM

  (16-08-2019, 04:15 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view......
  It is known as Pasque flower, known to bloom at Easter, so is already related in its own mythology with religious topics, and in this way i could see it being involved.
  .....

  Yes, Pulsatilla vulgaris is pasque flower, Pulsatilla patens is Eastern pasque flower. I did not have that aspect in mind. Thanks for that.

• RE: Plant 52r

  -JKP- > 16-08-2019, 07:23 PM

  The leaves if 52r are completely wrong for ginger. And the flower is different, as well. Even the rhizome is wrong for ginger:
  

  • Ginger leaves are moderately slender and plain. They are never vaguely handlike with fingers.
    

  • Ginger root is yellowish (not a deep red) and most people drew it yellowish brown or brownish. Red pigment was more expensive than the others. Why use a lot of heavily-laid-on red (the VMS root is red mixed with brown, but it still has a lot of red in it) for a yellowish root? The VMS red is obviously deliberate since the ends are conspicuously light.
    
  • Ginger was readily dried, so it came in from the east earlier than many other trade-route plants because it was  easier to transport without spoiling. In the Middle Ages they called it Zinziber or Synsiber.
    

  • Ginger flowers are on a separate stalk. They look a bit like a garden torch coming out of the ground. The flower is usually shades of red or pink. The VMS flower is at the top of a leaf stalk rather than on a separate stalk, and it is light blue.
    

  • The VMS illustrator drew accurate Nymphoides, accurate Ricinus, Tragopogon, Viola, and Phu. Why would he or she draw ginger so completely wrong, a plant that was familiar, a plant that most illustrators got right?
    

  Many plants grow from rhizomes. This could be a thousand other species with a rhizome. The only part of the VMS plant that looks even vaguely like ginger is the fact that it has a rhizome and it doesn't look very much like a ginger rhizome because ginger is notable for having pale brown or yellowish roots with soft rounded edges, not sharp red ones with white porous ends like the VMS plant.
  
  Here are some medieval and early modern ginger drawings. Note the thin plain leaves and the color and soft edges of the rhizomes:
  
  

• RE: Plant 52r

  -JKP- > 16-08-2019, 07:32 PM

  (15-08-2019, 05:46 PM)Common_Man Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The flower in close up looks like the guy was trying to draw 4 human figures.. But theres nothing more about the image that I'm noticing..
  
  It seems like some kind of "placeholder-real" set of plant images were drawn interspersed with those having biblical imagery, to maybe hide them in plain sight (for god knows what), and this maybe one of them.. Maybe the guy was a Christian Missionary disguised as a traveling medicine seller ?

  
  It has occurred to me many times that the person who created the VMS might be a missionary. Missionaries regularly created new alphabets to bring literacy to areas with no written language. And a number of famous missionaries were doctors. But parts of the VMS don't feel like a missionary approach to life (although many of the Jesuit missionaries were highly educated university graduates and university professors, so they probably didn't fit the stereotype of a missionary either).
  
  
  René's suggestion of a traveling medicine man does feel possible, so maybe you are right Common Man. Maybe if we combine those two things in one person, we might end up with something unusual like the VMS.
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