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What are the characteristics of Labelese?

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  • What are the characteristics of Labelese?
• What are the characteristics of Labelese?

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Mark Knowles > 30-08-2019, 07:06 PM

  Linda says: "Another characteristic of labelese particular to quire 13 is that it is not always employed. Examples f76v, f79r, f79v, f80v. Some pages label consistenly, like f77r, some only parts of the page, like f80r, only the top nymphs get labels, not the rest."
  
  I think this is an indicator that in many instances labels are not essential. There are many of the small plant drawings in the recipes section(so called) that have labels and many that do not. At least one of the small plants without a label, and I am sure others, is visually identical to a plant in the herbal section, showing this is a genuine plant, but no label was necessary. So in the context of my theory it would be perfectly reasonable for some labels to be null words as I label may have been superfluous anyway.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Mark Knowles > 30-08-2019, 07:14 PM

  Rene says:
  
  "I consider that the observed behaviour of the labels is not quite proof that the MS has meaning, but it shows that there is some 'intention' behind it. The text is clearly not just arbitrary filler."
  
  I am definitely inclined to the view that there is 'intention' behind what is written amongst the labels, but from that 'intention' it does not necessarily follow that it all has meaning. As I have made clear I think a significant proportion is filler though 'arbitrary' is a word that I would use with caution, as there can be thought behind the creation of a filler.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Anton > 30-08-2019, 07:17 PM

  (30-08-2019, 06:52 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If all of the VMs text is somehow the result of a random process, in the style of Rugg or Timm, then we would see something different.

  
  That's a good point!
  
  
  
  

  Quote:And yes, numbers also remain a valid option in my opinion, especially for the labels.

  
  I think that's an interesting avenue of research, one could take "labels as numbers" as a starting hypothesis and test its validity (using some method which I can't invent right now)

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Mark Knowles > 30-08-2019, 07:33 PM

  Rene says:
  
  "If all of the VMs text is somehow the result of a random process, in the style of Rugg or Timm, then we would see something different."
  
  The question is what do we mean by 'random' here. It is very unlikely the contents of the Voynich was produced by implementing an algorithm. So even if the text was meaningless it does necessary mean it is 'random'. Has anyone here tried to produce random text? I think one would find it quite different from random text produced by a algorithm on a computer. It is true the author used have used a process like rolling dice, tossing coins or spinning a roulette wheel to generate random text. However if one as a human is trying to generate random text the nature of that text would be a function of the cognitive biases and psychology behavioural patterns. So one might ask what patterns one might expect a human to produce when trying manually to generate meaningless text and what techniques might that person use to assist them in creating convincing random text. It seems there is an assumption that humans operate like standard computer and the patterns should reflect that.
  
  As I have stated I think a significant portion is filler, but I don't believe this was produced by some automated process, but rather was a function of the author's imaginative attempt to produce confusing text.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  ReneZ > 30-08-2019, 07:43 PM

  Certainly, the MS text was generated by a human. It is also to be expected that the outcome is not as arbitrary as if it had been the result of a computer simulation. There will be patterns.
  
  However, that has no impact on the point I am making.
  The 'arbitrary' or 'random' process would not generate something so completely different for the labels when compared with the running text.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Koen G > 30-08-2019, 07:52 PM

  (30-08-2019, 07:43 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 'arbitrary' or 'random' process would not generate something so completely different for the labels when compared with the running text.

  
  I agree. However, if I were to defend some auto-copying theory, I could easily say that labels were generated in a separate pass, with a different process. But since this is an extra assumption, it doesn't sit too well with Occam's razor.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Mark Knowles > 30-08-2019, 07:57 PM

  Rene says: "The 'arbitrary' or 'random' process would not generate something so completely different for the labels when compared with the running text."
  
  Well as you know I don't believe that all the labels text is a result of a 'arbitrary' or 'random' process, just a large slice of it.
  

  ---

  I find the author deliberately copying or repeating some of the text for simplicity i.e. to reduce the mental energy required to conceive of more filler text, a very likely possibility, I can imagine myself doing that in similar circumstances.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Linda > 30-08-2019, 08:13 PM

  (30-08-2019, 07:06 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda says: "Another characteristic of labelese particular to quire 13 is that it is not always employed. Examples f76v, f79r, f79v, f80v. Some pages label consistenly, like f77r, some only parts of the page, like f80r, only the top nymphs get labels, not the rest."
  
  I think this is an indicator that in many instances labels are not essential. There are many of the small plant drawings in the recipes section(so called) that have labels and many that do not. At least one of the small plants without a label, and I am sure others, is visually identical to a plant in the herbal section, showing this is a genuine plant, but no label was necessary. So in the context of my theory it would be perfectly reasonable for some labels to be null words as I label may have been superfluous anyway.

  
  From my perspective, the areas in quire 13 that get labels, for instance You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. top nymphs, are on the shore of the Mediterranean. The rest is inland. Same for f80v, it is not on the shore, hence no labels. Labels on  Portolan charts had labels for places mainly around the shores. Well known ones would sometimes get specially colored labels to denote this fame. I cant yet explain all the occurences nor lackings thereof though.
  
   F76v would be outside the Mediterranean, and perhaps labels would not be found west of its realm. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. would also be outside that realm to the east. 
  
  They could also denote coordinates of some kind, from a written account of the area, rather than from a map.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  -JKP- > 30-08-2019, 09:43 PM

  Hyde & Rugg's approach and Torsten Timm's approach are almost completely opposite. It worries me when I see people lump them together.
  
  
  Hyde & Rugg came up with a grille theory (I don't know whose idea it was originally, but the example on the Web was posted under both their names) and applied it to VMS text. They did NOT really study the text. Their grille example is fundamentally flawed because it assumes a certain structure that is not there. I won't discuss the specific reasons here, because it's a long conversation about how Voynichese works, but the way they divided up the parts of the tokens is incorrect not just in details, but in generalities.
  
  
  Torsten Timm, on the other hand is LOOKING at how VMS text is constructed and making an effort to describe it. He is looking at patterns, he is looking at similarity, he is looking at proximity (Hyde & Rugg never even addressed the issue of proximity).
  
  Timm' algorithms may not generate perfect Voynichese, but he IS studying the patterns and their possible interdependencies and Hyde & Rugg simply did not do that. The grille idea is logically flawed and does not demonstrate knowledge of the actual patterns that occur.
  
  Timm's description of the text is in a completely different ballpark from the Hyde & Rugg experiment.

• RE: What are the characteristics of Labelese?

  Mark Knowles > 30-08-2019, 09:59 PM

  Marco says:
  
  'Many of the labels that occur more than once appear to refer to different things.
  
  
  The most frequent repeating single-word labels:
  
  otaly occurs 8 times as a label: 5 times as zodiac-nymph; once as a "bio" "stream"; twice as "pharma" small-plants.
  Problems with this label were previously pointed out by VViews here.
  
  otedy occurs 6 times: twice each as zodiac-nymph, "bio" pool/tube and "bio" nymph
  
  oky occurs 6 times: 3 zodiac-nymphs; once at the center of the bottom-righ Rosettes (but this could be a short text crammed inside the picture); twice as "pharma" small-plants
  
  okal occurs 6 times: as a red moon in f67r2; 4 zodiac-nymphs; once as a bathing-nymph or "pine-cone" '
  
  And these phenomena don't stop there.
  
  Marco lists: otaly, otedy, oky and okal
  
  In addition there are many more examples on this theme.
  
  Normally words starting "ot" or "ok" and ending in a small variety of similar ways. So in addition a key factor to all these words repeated against different drawings is there similarity in spelling. Now it has been suggested these "words" encode a numbering scheme hence there similarity in spelling and their repetitions, however for the reasons that I have discussed I don't find that a plausible explanation. Rather as suggested I view all these similar words as being part of a group of null words, easily identified and generated due to their similar format.
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