• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

Most certain plant ID's?

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Imagery
  • Most certain plant ID's?
• Most certain plant ID's?

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  merrimacga > 19-06-2023, 06:21 AM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is my final suggestion for f3r, at least for now, and I list it mainly because it is similar to, and was once considered a subspecies of, P. vulgare, similarly native and widespread in Europe as well as having entered in the taxonomy the same year (1753). It was the only other Polypodium fern I found that was similar enough to f3r. However, unlike P. vulgare, I couldn't find an archaeological or other reference placing it in the Medieval period, not even its original name P. australe Fée. The plant in f3r could be either fern species.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
   

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  Bluetoes101 > 20-07-2023, 07:27 PM

  Feel like there's a fairly strong argument for 49r being a clove tree, or "Syzygium aromaticum". I do have a much more creative mind than analytical though, so I'm happy to be told I'm barking up the wrong (clove) tree.
  
  The worms in the roots likely represent tooth ache (v common at the time and centuries prior), to which the most common herbal remedy (at time of VM) is primarily cloves. The shape of the clove tree is well known for having a long bare trunk, its leaves and flowers are concentrated at the top giving an "umbrella" look. The flowers have 2 stages of flowering, as depicted in the VM folio.
  
  The "vines" are not a 1 for 1 match, but it would be extremely unlikely for someone to have actually seen a clove tree in person in the early 15th century unless they were from, or frequented Indonesia somehow. They would have access to cloves however via Arab and Indian traders and I don't think it too unlikely the artist took a bit of artistic freedom in regards to deciding how their cloves would attach to the tree they had heard of. And after all, lets face it, if this image was a true to life scientific diagram of a specimen, the flowers would be about 6ft tall each, or we are dealing with a 20cm tall tree here. 
  
  I don't think the size/shape of the roots are based on anything real.. you would have probably been killed for digging up a clove tree to have a look at its roots. 
  
  
  Images show the VM folio, various images of the clove tree and flowers. Bottom left is a 1700s image of a clove(s) and right an 1500s image of the spice islands, showing the clove tree. As with anything in the VM, I'm sure this idea can be pulled apart in a multitude of ways, but I hope at the very least this is interesting to think about. 
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  Scarecrow > 21-07-2023, 09:20 AM

  (19-06-2023, 06:21 AM)merrimacga Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is my final suggestion for f3r, at least for now, and I list it mainly because it is similar to, and was once considered a subspecies of, P. vulgare, similarly native and widespread in Europe as well as having entered in the taxonomy the same year (1753). It was the only other Polypodium fern I found that was similar enough to f3r. However, unlike P. vulgare, I couldn't find an archaeological or other reference placing it in the Medieval period, not even its original name P. australe Fée. The plant in f3r could be either fern species.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
   

  
  According to the UK Plant Heritage Society, the oldest named cultivar is Polypodium cambricum ‘Richard Kayse’ which dates back to at least 1668. 
  The species records date back to at least 1491! Polypodium has a long history and for many years the American and European species were all classed as P. vulgare.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  merrimacga > 22-07-2023, 08:31 AM

  Thanks for finding that Scarecrow. And thanks for the new botanical reference as well. I created a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and will add a post there about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  For those who want to know, Mr. Reed, the author of the PDF in Scarecrow's post, is a pteridologist, meaning he studies ferns, and he is an author, a blogger and a committee member of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a fern enthusiast organization founded in 1891 (their Patron is the Prince of Wales!), as well as a blogger and member of Plant Heritage.

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  merrimacga > 23-07-2023, 10:41 AM

  (20-07-2023, 07:27 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Feel like there's a fairly strong argument for 49r being a clove tree, or "Syzygium aromaticum". I do have a much more creative mind than analytical though, so I'm happy to be told I'm barking up the wrong (clove) tree.

  
  Well, I wouldn't say you're barking up the wrong tree. It may be impossible, or at least nearly so, to closely match VM plant images, at least certain ones, to any known modern plants or even drawings of plants from the 15th century. Both the VM drawings themselves and the coloring to them could be fanciful, influenced by religion or other contemporary sources, drawn from memory rather than an actual specimen, or simply drawn inaccurately by the artist. 
  
  S. aromaticum is an intriguing suggestion and it was a nice thought process you put into it but I'm not sure it's a sufficient match. I do wonder, though, if there are any closer species in the same genus (Syzygium, about 1,200 species) or family (Myrtaceae, over 5,000 species). None of which appear native to Europe but I would say they can't be ruled out without further research. Hmm...
  
  For one thing, as you said, it's unlikely the VM artist would have encountered the whole plant rather than just the clove. Certainly, it was a known plant and its cloves used all the way back to ancient times (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), originally under the name Caryophyllus aromaticus (entered in the taxa 1753, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). But it was native only to the Malukus (Spice Islands) and at the time would have been a somewhat rare, expensive and highly controlled commodity (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). It was later introduced in Thailand, Borneo, Zanzibar, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Seychelles, Tanzania, and, much later, parts of the Caribbean (sources: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Tropicos notes some collections and specimens in the United States but none in Europe. GBIF notes on their map two European locations but these may be isolated specimens or the location of the person who collected them elsewhere. As a wet tropical plant, and given the considerable consensus that the VM was written somewhere in Europe (likely in a Germanic location), it is unlikely a specimen was grown there back then.
  
  Here is a copy of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. without the background or text on the left and a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from the Wikipedia article on the right:
  
               
  
  Let's suppose we ignore the roots and that we can trust the basic colors, the main plant parts and some of the smaller details in the VM illustration. Then we would be looking for a plant, possibly a vine, with tendrils with individual flowers (no clusters), flowers that normally point up, red flower receptacles, dark blue petals, and clusters of (or whorled) orbicular leaves with crenate edges (hard to see unless you zoom in). Since the tendrils seem to grow out of the plant, we're not looking for two plants with one twining around the other. The tendrils also make it unlikely this is a tree, though some trees have something similar to tendrils. The leaves do look like they come out of branches but their bend and overall shape suggest it's not a tree.
  
  By contrast, even if the VM artist had local access to a specimen or traveled to the Spice Islands, S. aromaticum cloves do flower but they are in clusters and the petals aren't prominent like common flower petals are. The receptacle (base) is red but the petals are cream/yellow-green instead of blue (the pink sepals are the prominent part; when in full bloom, only the profusion of white/cream stamens is visible). The leaves are a different shape with a smooth edge and don't present in clusters (or whorled).
  
  There have been a few other proposals made for 49r. In this thread on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Marco posted a link to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where he compiled a few suggestions for it made by several prominent VM researchers. But I believe there was a consensus in this thread that JKP's suggestion of cuscuta on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was the leading one, which Koen then added to the list in the initial post. JKP went into more detail on cuscuta in this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. post in a separate thread and also in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on the Voynich Portal website. I'm not sure I agree with that suggestion either but I will have to do some more research and comparisons to see if I can come up with a better suggestion myself (I have a few ideas and will post them here whenever I get done digging). You should keep looking into it too. S. aromaticum may not be a close enough match for consensus but there must be other possibilities, if not in the same genus or family then certainly elsewhere in the plant taxa.

• RE: Most certain plant ID's?

  Bernd > 08-05-2024, 12:31 AM

  f56v bears a strong resemblance to Polytrichum moss.
  
     
  
  Polytrichum is called Widertonmoos in German, supposedly from „Wider-das-antun“ and was used as an antidote and for counterspells but also for practical applications like insulation.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  It was illustrated by Hieronymus Bock in 1546
     
  
  The sporangium has a toothed peristome which looks very much like the VM 'flower', While tiny it can be seen with the naked eye.
  
     
  
     
• Next Oldest Next Newest