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Claimed translations
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Claimed translations
Diane > 24-03-2018, 11:11 AM
Two things - first, has anyone made a list of every claimed translation for the written part of the text? Someone asked me how many there are now, and I found myself unable even to guess. Twenty? Thirty?
Secondly, I thought it might be interesting to compare each claimed translation of a single folio - I've chosen folio 33v because the text is fairly short but not too much so.
Anyone able to provide one or more claimed translation of f.33v? -
RE: Claimed translations
-JKP- > 24-03-2018, 11:26 AM
There have been many. Unfortunately, most claimed translators only reveal a sentence or three or four and then claim to be writing books of complete translations (that I haven't seen yet).
The only person I'm aware of who has released a complete translation is P. Lockerby, who uploaded a machine-generated expanded-Latin translation that contains almost no Latin words at all.
Even the short translations often don't make any grammatical sense or aren't really in the language the person claims (if you happen to know that language). They only superficially look like Latin or whatever language.
Even the ones that make some grammatical sense tend to have some subjective interpretation added to the original method. In other words, the method yields questionable text which is then interpreted by the claimant into more readable text.
I've seen claimed translations (mostly snippets) in Latin, Finnish, Welsh, English, Swedish, French, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Russian, Hebrew, Greek, Turkish, Spanish, Arabic, Sanskrit-based languages, Kabbalah, and several others, and I haven't even actively looked for them (except for the ones that get into the mainstream press). There are probably a dozen more languages that have been claimed. -
RE: Claimed translations
Diane > 25-03-2018, 11:28 AM
-JKP-
Yes, everything you say confirms what I've noticed, but I don't think I've paid much attention to anything said about the written part of the text and would like to remedy that.
Of those you mention, can you be more specific about any, or direct me to any of them?
Quote:.... Latin, Finnish, Welsh, English, Swedish, French, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Russian, Hebrew, Greek, Turkish, Spanish, Arabic, Sanskrit-based languages, Kabbalah, and several others...
It seems as if people in general have no idea of how many claimed translations have been offered. What is a little more unnerving is that no-one seems to have troubled to investigate them in any depth.
What if one is a true translation that has been slapped with a routine 'Just Ignore' sticker, and everyone has obediently done as instructed?
I gather that there isn't any other member who has kept track, either - not even to the point of keeping count of their number.
Guess it's another outstanding question I'll have to research for myself. Not unusual.
And thanks for even so general a response as you were able to make. I appreciate it. -
RE: Claimed translations
-JKP- > 25-03-2018, 04:10 PM
(25-03-2018, 11:28 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-JKP-
Yes, everything you say confirms what I've noticed, but I don't think I've paid much attention to anything said about the written part of the text and would like to remedy that.
Of those you mention, can you be more specific about any, or direct me to any of them?
Quote:.... Latin, Finnish, Welsh, English, Swedish, French, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Russian, Hebrew, Greek, Turkish, Spanish, Arabic, Sanskrit-based languages, Kabbalah, and several others...
There have been MANY claims of Latin, probably because most of the glyphs are Latin and the position of the Latin abbreviations is consistent with their placement in the VMS.
No, sorry, I don't have time to direct you to them. There are too many. Some are famous, like Brumbaugh (discredited), Strong (discredited), Newbold (discredited), and then there are dozens of blogs claiming solutions and many papers and press releases claiming solutions. I've never done a roundup of links because the results, in my opinion, have no merit and it's not because someone ELSE discredited them, it's because I can see the flaws in the method very readily. I have already written analyses of solutions proferred by Strong, Brumbaugh, Bax, Lockerby, Gibbs, et al.
Quote:It seems as if people in general have no idea of how many claimed translations have been offered. What is a little more unnerving is that no-one seems to have troubled to investigate them in any depth.
What if one is a true translation that has been slapped with a routine 'Just Ignore' sticker, and everyone has obediently done as instructed?
..
Good grief!!!
I don't think this is happening at all!! EVERY translation I see I go through with a fine-tooth comb to see if the method is consistent and the logic defendible. I also check very carefully to determine how much was based on method, how much on guesswork, and how much on subjective tinkering with the text. I'm sure if I am doing it then anyone with a serious interest in cryptanalysis is also doing it.
There's no way the research community specifically interested in the text would turn his or her back on something with genuine merit. The only way this might happen is if the code-breaker didn't reveal enough for us to make a judgment. -
RE: Claimed translations
Koen G > 25-03-2018, 05:56 PM
Diane, as moderator on this forum I must really back JKP here. We are thirsty for solutions, and consider every translation of the text with an open mind. All supposed translations that come out are given a more than fair shot.
For example, there was a lot of honest debate about the Turkish family's translation. In the end people concluded that we'd really need to see more of their method, which is a requirement to test whether results are gained by a reliable method and can be reduplicated.
The thing is that many "translators" make the same mistakes, which means that they can be dismissed quickly. -
RE: Claimed translations
davidjackson > 25-03-2018, 08:46 PM
I have personally read over a dozen proposed translations, and dismissed them all. Some of them have been discussed on this forum; some on blogs; some not at all.
Am I an expert qualified to judge on such matters? No I am not.
But the "professional" translations are easily available online and poured over by the community, both professional and amateur.
The rest sink into obscurity because people look at them, fail to find anything understandable, and move on.
So yes, it's possible the "real" translation is out there and has failed to be recognised. But guess what - I'd bet money that it isn't. -
RE: Claimed translations
Koen G > 25-03-2018, 09:03 PM
I also think, philosophically speaking, that people won't dismiss a translation with some potential. If someone uncovers a track into the VM, people will want to be right there on that train. Like David says, there are many more people looking at these solutions than just the vocal few in the community. If there is a solution out there with enough meat to it and merit, it will be picked up. So far, however, all "translations" lack meat, merit or both. -
RE: Claimed translations
Ruby Novacna > 26-03-2018, 03:25 PM
Hello Diane!
How do you intend to compare the different translation proposals, as long as nobody knows the true meaning of the text, whatever the chosen page?