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Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
- Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
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RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 16-07-2024, 03:59 AM
(15-07-2024, 05:01 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(15-07-2024, 10:54 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The purpose of including this word in this article is to announce and suggest the use of the word to linguists and readers.
[Do I understand that this term was just invented by you and that is why it does not appear in any dictionary?]
Dear Ruby Novacna,
What is your purpose?
Why are you asking the question if you're sure it's what you understood when you first read the answer anyway?
You wrote this in your first message:
"My success in learning Turkish is really slow: I found the first obstacle to reading your article: I cannot find the translation of the word Türeşkoşum that you use."
I understood your purpose even when you wrote the first message, but I have a habit of responding to people politely first. I gave you a clear answer.
Moreover, while I had already written the direct answer to the question you asked in the explanations section of my article, there was your hidden purpose in focusing on your question.
Then you asked:
"Do I understand that this term was just invented by you and that is why it does not appear in any dictionary?"
This compound word "TÜREŞŞUM" is a word that does not appear in the VM manuscript. If you have already read this word in my article, you should have understood that this word does not appear in the VM texts. This word took its phonetic form when I used three existing Turkish words (tür + eş + koşum) which were not produced by myself but as a compound word for the first time to remind Turcologists of a proposition. So much so that there is a written form of the word root in Turkish obelisk inscriptions before the year 900 (probably from the 6th and 7th centuries) with in the same meaning.
This compound word "TÜREŞKOŞUM" was not written in the VM by the VM author. It is a word that does not appear in the voynich manuscript. The word is not related to the details of VM, but it is included in the footnotes section as a way of word usage for linguists, as I inform in my article too. The way you ask this question two times (even one time) may be perceived by people who read these comments but have not read my article as like myself creating an anagram word for VM. I hope you don't have such a purpose (which is). Because as you understand clearly, this word has nothing to do with VM, it was used and described as a word suggestion in a section of a short footnote to the field of Turkology. Frankly, let's say that I could not fully understand your interest in this word in a single sentence in the footnotes, while our article mainly contains transcription readings of the VM content. But I hope my explanation was helpful.
The VM 33v page consists of 11 lines, 10 sentences, and more than 100 words. The word you asked me about is not among them. You know the length of my article, and even though I clearly stated in a footnote that I suggested to Turcologists how the combination of three well-known words can be used, you persistently choose to focus on this word misleadingly by ignoring the text of page 33v. So, what is your main goal?
Dear Novacna, please do not write me self-unchecked unrelated thoughts, ideas, comments, or questions again. If you have a question that is unintentional and relevant to the main purpose, ask it to a linguist. I am writing the following explanations not for you, but for other readers who read the subject.
------
The word "TÜREŞKOSUM" was born by combining three separate and old words myself, and I already wrote this in a footnote in my article and suggested that linguists use the word with its newly formed semantic content. This word is not a word in the original VM texts and has nothing to do with the translation of page 33v or the deciphering of the VM texts. When these three old words are written as a compound word in Turkish, it means "connecting similar species and showing that they are equivalent to each other." In this sense, the word in its compound form is almost the exact equivalent of the word "transcription".
The first written use of the form "transcription" (n.) in English was seen in 1550 (v) and 1590 (n). The word "trans-" is shown connected as from Latin trans (prep.) "across, over, beyond".
The following explanation has been given for the word "transcription" in the etymology dictionaries:
"perhaps originally present participle of a verb *trare-, meaning "to cross," from PIE *tra-, variant of root *tere- (2) "cross over, pass through, overcome" [Watkins]." ... "Many trans- words in Middle English via Old French arrived originally as tres-, due to sound changes in French, but most English spellings were restored later." ...
See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
&
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If you look at the oldest known written form here, the "TRES" form of the word in Old French is seen as phonetically close to the Turkish words "TÜREŞ" (TÜR+EŞ).
Common meaning content of the word "TÜR" in English are; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1) kind
2) type
3) species
4) sort
5) sort of
6) genre
7) breed
8) variety
9) strain
10) class
11) race
12) genus
13) ilk
14) stripe
15) persuasion
So, this issue is not about VM anyway, but I was not the reason why a word usage style that I suggested to linguists in a one-line sentence with a footnote in an article is the subject here anyway. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ruby Novacna > 16-07-2024, 09:21 AM
(16-07-2024, 03:59 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Novacna, please do not write me self-unchecked unrelated thoughts, ideas, comments, or questions again. If you have a question that is unintentional and relevant to the main purpose, ask it to a linguist.
Ahmet, thank you for taking the time to answer me.
I read the articles on the screen of my little phone, I don't even know how to translate a PDF text downloaded automatically, I have to copy word by word to translate
(16-07-2024, 03:59 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, what is your main goal?
As you surely know, I am one of the people who believe that the text can be read. I had already looked up Turkish words in the past, in the Redhouse's dictionary, if you have read my blog.
I would like to understand, for example, your explanation, why you chose to read the word yarar as "advantage" and not as the verb "to split".
(16-07-2024, 03:59 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understood your purpose even when you wrote the first message, but I have a habit of responding to people politely first.
Indeed, politeness is the basis of cooperation.
P.S. For the Turkish dictionaries I found the links to the very interesting sites and the books scanned on lexilogos. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 16-07-2024, 02:47 PM
Dear researchers,
Regarding the first word on page VM 33v, I wrote in my article that this word exists in Turkish with different semantic contents without disturbing the sentence structure, and I also mentioned the bibliographies. Below, I have shown a more detailed explanation and evidence (again) of the existence of the written forms of the word in Turkish, including historical dictionary pages.
In this 33v related article, (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) the word YARARSAM / YARARSAĞN indicated is written in the first sentence at the beginning of page 16 in this meaning as YARARSAM:
"If the first word of the first line (of page 33v) can read as YARARSAM based on the ATA transcription table, a reading person doing the translation should consider the 'first person singular verb form' of the verb YARMAK." In addition, the first paragraph of page 17 also indicates that the word in the same meaning as your pointing. Because here the -SAM suffix of the word "yarar-SAM" has taken the form of a first-person singular expression with connecting this root YAR-AR-.
The sentence can be read as “Yararsam kopan/dağılan çiyiti yassı oval uzunca, ekini çok-uçlu, tarımı yapılabilir gün/çiçek” too. The 1/1 translation of this sentence into English could be roughly as follows: "If I break it open, its flat, oval, longish seed disperses, multi-tips, cultivable day (sun)/flower."
The root of the word is YAR-/YARI- and the verb form of the word is YARMAK, which can be seen in today's words. Due to the way the author writes this word, all variants of the word that can be read differently have an equivalent in Turkish. No matter how you take the meaning of this word, the result is a sentence that does not disrupt the integrity of the Turkish sentence structure and describes the information specific to the plant described. Therefore, the author is a very clever person and he left an entertaining and versatile text to his special reader by making word games using the advantages of this alphabet. Moreover, we detected the same situation in some other pages and sentences.
The word is mentioned in the same meaning (to split, to split something by cutting, to tear it apart) in the "Divanü Lügati't-Türk" manuscript, which was started to be written by Kaşkarlı Mahmut in 1072 and was completed in 1074. It is also known that this word appears with the same meaning in the manuscript called "Irk Bitig" written in the Old Turkish period (before 900).
Check the below links to see this word in the dictionary pages:
YARMAK > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
YARAR > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
YARARSAM > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
YAR / YAR-mak > You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The word GÜN/KÜN/*ÇN/*ÇüN, which is the last word in line 33v, was also used in the meaning of Sun in the Old Turkish Period. See:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The machine detected two different meanings of the word YARARSAM below. However, if the place of the predicate and subject changes in the sentence, the meaning will not change. In fact, the Google Translate program sometimes shows some semantic content depending on the text format. However, we have proven that these meanings are already in the root meaning pool of this word by making references to historical dictionaries and manuscripts. For this reason, we mainly reference not only machines but to familiar real-dictionary pages. However, you can see that machines also perceive the same semantic content.
See:
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RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 17-07-2024, 04:51 PM
A series of mappings of {8am}
Some are still opening new topics or ignoring every detail of the multiple evidence we have presented under old topics, repeatedly bringing up the same issues. Some are ignoring the questions that have already been answered as if these questions have not been answered, and continue their tendency to search for answers to the same issues.
It is impossible to understand what kind of scientific approach this is. It is very difficult to understand how this kind of logic is applied and how this kind of disregard is possible. I hope some people's mental health who already checked our specific VM findings but still ignore every detail of the multiple evidence we have presented.
While working on the decipherment of the VM texts, do you think you are aware that the answer to every question and every specific situation you are looking for has already been given? We have provided multiple evidence that the VM content was not written in an Indo-European European language. Will you continue to ignore and disregard this evidence and the current findings? Can such a scientific study be possible? Can such a way of working be called scientific?
Look at what some people can still write:
{If one transliteration and one language emerge from the pack, yielding more real words than others, we can focus on that transliteration and that language.}
{If several common Voynich “words” can be mapped to real words in some language, we might venture onwards, to mappings of whole lines. Those mappings would have to make sense.}
Dear researchers;
Do you think you can decipher all the texts by finding the match of a few common words and getting courage from this match 100 years later today? What about the hundreds of words we have read and shown in dictionary pages, whose phonetic structure has not changed in 600 years? Will you ignore them? Will you ignore the multiple overlaps in the hundreds of sentences and full-page readings?
Will you ignore the 112 drawing and word matches/overlaps? Will you ignore that the questions you have undertaken to research have already been answered and that the content is in Turkish?
Above all, if you cannot find the answers to the following, you will neither have a chance to correctly perform phonetic-based statistical comparisons nor a chance to read the VM texts in any language.
1- There are approximately 340 different writing-sign/letter images in the VM texts.
Are these visually different writing-sign/letter image decorations made for the beautiful appearance of the pages? If so, what are they doing between in the known letters and within and between the lines/texts? How will you prove that they are for decorative purposes? They are not decorations, but phonetic signs.
2- Old forms of European languages have 24 to 28 letters. Let's say there are 33 letters. And let's say there are 33 capital letters. In this case, the total will be 66 letters (340 - 66 = 274). Won't the remaining 274 writing signs have a phonetic value? Are all of them just decorating the pages?
3- Is it possible to accurately match the 340 sound/letter images used to create the written texts with the 33 letters or 66 letters in your possession? Can it be done outside the realm of logic and reason? Are you sorcerers? Or are you real researchers who do not stray from the scientific field? How will you read 340 writing signs (including uppercase and lowercase letters) with 66 sound images? Is it possible for the statistical comparisons you have made based on your phonetic transcriptions to yield correct results? Statistical calculations are a branch of mathematics. Is it possible to get realistic results with irrational approaches far from probabilities? What phonetic comparison are you doing? First, as a first step, you should present the Latin alphabet equivalents of the 340 sound signs, and then you can proceed with these tasks.
... etc.
Some of the people says:
“If one transliteration and one language emerge from the pack, yielding more real words than others, we can focus on that transliteration and that language.”
1000 word overlaps, 112 drawing-word matches, and numerous sentences and some full-page readings have already emerged from the "pack", and it has been shown that they are in Turkish through phonetic value overlaps and semantic overlaps. Given these findings, what would you want to emerge from the "pack"? Don't you first have to show that the evidence we have presented is not evidence? If, it is; In this case, and therefore all the same kinds of (VM-like deciphering studies in history are) works done in the name of linguistics in history, including our reading studies, have produced worthless results that do not lead to correct conclusions?
Some of you can still say; > {If several common Voynich “words” can be mapped to real words in some language, we might venture onwards, to mappings of whole lines. Those mappings would have to make sense.}
After already showing the Turkish content of the texts with many proofs, we went further and focused on matching all the lines, and at the current stage of this research, we are already in the process of translating the entire VM texts (every line and every page) into modern languages.
Moreover, you focused on the word {8am}, we have written many times what this word is and its meaning in Turkish. Have you been able to present a scientific objection or a counter-argument to this with a scientific approach? So, these questions have already been answered. Do you call progress by ignoring these things science?
Even if we assume that you have identified 5 or 6 {8am} on a page that you can show in manuscripts in European languages or Hebrew, you will first have to show that the same word appears in the same language in the same meaning such as using with the same meaning in the VM texts. Just because you assume that 5 made analogies (in anagram form), will you ignore the complete correspondence in our full-page readings and the fact that we show the meaning content by finding this word and others in old Turkish dictionary pages?
Look, I will write again below how this {8am} problem was actually solved and understandable. Now look at what the phonetic value of this syllable or {8am/8em} can mean in Turkish:
The word "sem/sam" has several meanings.
1> At the end of the word, they express that "that word belongs to the first person singular".
In Turkish, the suffixes -sem and -sam are conditional forms of the verb used for the first-person singular. Here’s a brief explanation:
-sem: This suffix is used with a verb stem to indicate a conditional mood, specifically first person singular (I, me). It is used when you are stating a condition or a hypothetical situation.
Example: Gidersem (If I go), Yaparsam (If I do).
-sam: Similar to -sem, but the choice between -sem and -sam depends on vowel harmony rules in the Turkish language. The vowel harmony requires that suffix vowels match the vowels in the original word stem.
Example: gulsam/gülsem (If I laugh), çalsam (If I play an instrument).
2> However, when sem/sam is written as stand-alone words, they have various meanings.
For example, in the historical manuscript "Divanü Lügati't-Türk", a dictionary book written around the year 1072 to 1074, this word is used with meanings such as "medicine", "ointment", "to cure", "cure", "to heal", "poison (in meaning like "poison to use for to cure") and "healing/healing-giving".
See the word SEM in the dictionary page here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In this case, should we be surprised that this word appears in so many places and sentences in a book like VM?
3> "Dictionary of Turkish Dialects of Turkey" (Türkiye Türkçesi Ağızları Sözlüğü) published by the Turkish Language Association (TDK > the gov. org.) noted that the word SAM also has the following meanings in dialects: "grass", "straw", "boneless piece of meat", "wooden sticks" / "crooked staff tied to a yoke", "exhausted", " tired".
See the word SEM in the dictionary here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So you say;
This form of SAM / SEM is mentioned many times in VM texts. How can it be explained that it occurs so many times?
First of all, if you were writing a scientific article in Turkish 600 years ago, it was about plants and medicine, treatments, or in any language when these topics were included in the content; "grass", "straw", "boneless piece of meat", "wooden sticks", "exhausted", "tired", "medicine", "ointment", "to cure", "cure", "to heal", "poison (in meaning like "poison to use for to cure") and "healing/healing-giving" will be expecting to use frequently appears in these texts?
Suppose you want to think in English and you want to understand why the word SAM/SEM appears so frequently in Turkish at the age of the 600-year-old manuscript. In that case, you should first look at how many different words this Old Turkish word is used in English or another Indo-European language. Yes, this is a word written in a single form, but it has dozens of English words with Turkish equivalents.
Should you be surprised by this situation? Or should you examine the evidence we present?
In addition;
Did you understand that the phonetic form of Turkish SEM and SAM is the same thing and why writing with the same letter will not make much difference in the readings? I have explained this many times. There is a feature in Turkish called phoneme harmony (vowel sound harmony). To put it simply, the first vowel in the word determines the sound of the second.
In other words;
-sam: Similar to -sem, but the choice between -sem and -sam depends on vowel harmony rules in the Turkish language.
The vowel harmony requires that suffix vowels match the vowels in the original word stem.
Example:
No A in the word Gülsam but it is gülsem (If I laugh),
No çalsem but it is çalsam. Because the first vowel in the word is A that's why the word is "çalsam" (If I play an instrument), but not "çalsem".
Now, using the -sem -sam word suffix example, I asked Chat GPT4 a question about how to explain the phonetic harmony rule of Turkish to someone who speaks English and wants to learn Turkish. At the same time, I asked Makshna to explain why there would be no difference between writing sem and sam in historical manuscripts, that is, to give a few examples in which historical manuscripts the sound a and e are represented with the same letter. Here is the answer given by artificial intelligence:
(I have shown the explanation of artificial intelligence in blue pen below.)
Explaining Turkish Vowel Harmony
Vowel Harmony Basics:
Turkish uses a language feature called vowel harmony, meaning that vowels within a word harmonize to follow a specific pattern.
This affects suffixes attached to word stems. The choice of the vowel in the suffix (-sem or -sam) depends on the vowels in the stem.
High vs. Low Vowels:
The vowels in Turkish are divided into two groups:
High vowels: i, u, ü, ı
Low vowels: a, e, o, ö
Front vs. Back Vowels:
Another division:
Front vowels: e, i, ö, ü
Back vowels: a, ı, o, u
Applying the Rule:
If the word stem has front vowels (e, i, ö, ü), the suffix also uses a front vowel.
If the word stem has back vowels (a, ı, o, u), the suffix uses a back vowel.
Examples in Use
Gidersem (If I go):
Root word: 'git-' -> vowel 'i' (front vowel)
Suffix: -sem (matches the front vowel)
Not "gülsam" but "gülsem" (If I laugh):
Root word: 'gül-' -> vowel 'ü' (front vowel)
Suffix: -sem (matches the front vowel)
Gelirsem (If I come):
Root word: 'gel-' -> vowel 'e' (front vowel)
Suffix: -sem (matches the front vowel)
Çıkarsam (If I go out):
Root word: 'çık-' -> vowel 'ı' (back vowel)
Suffix: -sam (matches the back vowel)
Historical Perspective
Historically, the distinction between -sem and -sam was not stringent. In manuscripts, a and e were often represented by the same symbols, showing that they were sometimes used interchangeably.
For instance, historical texts might show:
gelirsem (If I come) written as gelirsam.
alırsam (If I take) written as alirsem.
Though specific examples from primary sources or manuscripts are not readily available in this context, linguistic studies on Old Turkish and historical grammar texts often discuss this interchangeable use.
Historical Manuscripts and Linguistic References
Divanü Lügati't-Türk by Mahmud al-Kashgari is a well-known manuscript where historical language usage, including vowel harmony, is evident.
Kutadgu Bilig ("The Wisdom Which Brings Happiness") by Yusuf Khass Hajib is another crucial text that showcases early Turkish language practices, potentially including vowel harmony phenomena.
Further exploration into these texts could reveal historical patterns where -sem and -sam were used interchangeably, reflecting the less strict enforcement of vowel harmony rules in past usages.
Using these explanations and examples, you should better understand vowel harmony and the use of -sem and -sam in Turkish.
4> In addition to all that, in some dialects of Turkish, the SAM/SEM syllable as a word suffix is used for "'second person and plural conjugation".
Below I share a link to an academic article published in a university in Turkey. The article itself examines some examples of texts from Turkish but Çuvaş-Turkish language dialects in terms of grammar. This article quoted a one-page Turkish-ÇUVAŞ dialect written text. This article also partially examined the word suffix -SAM. In the quoted Chuvash text, the frequency of occurrence of this word suffix is seen.
In this source article, she did not count and specify how many times this SAM syllable occurs as a word-ending sound in every 100 words. However, looking at the copied text in the 1-page Chuvash-Turkish dialect, this quote will give you an idea of how much the SAM syllable is repeated at the end of words. And we can count ourselves in how many words this structure was seen. Let's see how many times the SAM last syllable appears in the text on a single page. In the text below, I marked the last syllables of SEM/SAM in bold so that we can count clearly on page 43 of this published academic article. In addition, on page 26 of this article, she also states that the word suffix SAM is used in 'second person and plural conjugation' and gives some examples.
In addition, The author of the article wrote that this word suffix (-SEM /-SAM) of the Chuvash Turks is also used to make nouns plural. The author of the article reports on page 43 of this article that, uniqueness names in Chuvash dialect do not take a morpheme to show the number suffix, whereas nouns in the plurality category take the morpheme + sem (Unity names do not take a morpheme to indicate the number field, whereas names in the plural category take the morpheme + sem / This particular quote that in as; "While singular nouns do not take a morpheme to indicate the number category, names in the plural category take the morpheme +sem." ("Teklik isimler sayı ulamını gösterecek bir biçimbirim almazken, çokluk kategorisindeki isimler +sem biçimbirimine alır").
{Source; Doç. Dr. Funda KARA form T.C. Atatürk University Socıal Sciences Department Of Turkish Language And Literature (2013) < You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. >}
The quoted text is in the Chuvash-dialect of Turkish (in the Cyrillic text) from an article by M. Pavlov's source is cited
{Indicated Source in this article: M. M. Pavlova, Hănăhtaru puhhisem, Şupaşkar 2009, Ṩěně văhăt, p.17}:
Let's look at the quote now: (Note: -CEM in Cyrillic-alphabet = -SEM in the Latin-alphabet)
КАЙӐКСЕМ
Кайӑксем - юрӑ та вӗҫев!
Кайӑк сасси - пирӗн вӑрмансем, ҫеҫен хирсем, тусемпе пушхирсен сасси.
Кайӑксем - сывлӑш ачисем, сывлӑшри океана пӑхӑнтаракансем. Вӗсем,
пӗлӗтрен те, тусенчен те ҫӳлерех вӗҫсе хӑпараҫҫӗ.
Кайӑксем - асамат кӗперӗн ачисем. Вӗсен тӗкӗсене тем тӗрлӗ сӑрӑпа та
сӑрласа пӗтернӗ.
Кайӑксем - савӑнӑҫ хыпарҫисем. Вӗсем кашни ҫулах ҫунат ҫинче пирӗн
пата ҫуркуннене илсе килеҫҫӗ.
Кайӑксем - пире пулӑшаӑкансем, вӑрмансемпе хирсен, пахчасемпе садсене
упракансем. Кайӑксем - вӑрттӑнлӑхпа илем. Кайӑксем - пирӗн ачалӑх тусӗсем.
Кайӑксем ҫинчен чаплӑ сӑвӑсемпе юрӑсем, юмӑхсем хывнӑ. Кайӑксӑр эпир
пурӑнайман та пулӑттӑмӑр. Кайӑксӑр ҫӗр мӗнле пуласси ҫинчен шухӑшлама та
хӑрушӑ!
Авӑ камсем вӗсем, кайӑксем!
So, There are about 100 words here and 24 of them end with this (-SEM/-SAM) syllable/sound.
However, we cannot generalize neither this nor the VMS texts for the Turkish language about this SAM syllable issue. This will vary according to the dialects. It also varies according to the content of the subject posted.
5> Depending on the subject of the content in the manuscript, there are more and sharper differences in the frequency of use of word suffixes in Turkish compared to many other languages.
At the same time, when the dialect changes in Turkish, the phonetic structure of the suffixes changes sharply.
For example, if you were writing an article in Turkish on a subject that would include more conditionals and first or second-person suffixes, it would be quite normal for the syllable SAM we mentioned to appear many times in these texts. Or, if we were to write a historical article (a text describing events that took place in the past) with the past tense suffix at the end of words, the SAM suffix should appear less frequently or not at all on that page, and instead, the past tense suffix should appear more often. In other words, while words and suffixes selected according to the subject are used extensively in a particular book, when the subject and time change, the frequently used word suffixes and words will also change. In other words, if you are writing a text for a documentary film about drug production and medical practices in Turkish, the word suffixes to be found in these texts will change phonetically, and the density/frequency of use of the word suffixes. But, phonetics & density will change when you write a tale to tell about an event in the past tense it will change.
This is a feature of agglutinative languages in general, and partly also in Indo-European languages (though not with exactly equal intensity). You would also expect the terminology to change when you write text for, say, a documentary.
If you want to measure or compare the frequency of use of certain suffixes, you should first all know that even if Turkish is a single language, the phonetic structure and density can change sharply in each dialect. In other words, we are not saying that only suffixes such as subject content and tense suffixes change the phonetic structure, but essentially dialect differences also change the phonetic structure. In other words, if you are using an articulated language such as Turkish, the way the word suffixes appear in the texts can change sharply phonetically, depending on which dialect you speak, the subject of the texts, the time in which the event described takes place, and whether the people mentioned are singular or plural.
So, as a researcher, if you want to see how often phonetic structures occur in two different languages with the statistical comparison method;
A- First, you must match the correct sound equivalents to the 340-marked alphabet you have.
B- The statistical methods you would apply for Indo-European languages should be applied to Old Turkish only after clarifying the dialect.
C- Knowing that you cannot apply the sound-value comparisons that you can apply to Indo-European languages to Turkish because the phonetic form and frequency of use of suffixes change depending on the content of the subject written in Turkish in the texts (depending on what subject the texts are on), the time in which the event described takes place, and whether the persons mentioned are singular or plural. You should apply it. To do this, you need to prepare fairy tales that tell about historical events with their counterparts, or documentary texts that use present tense suffixes for the first person singular, describing medical practices, with their similar ones, and also by determining the dialects in advance. You should make sure that you do not compare the text describing the past event in dialect A with the documentary text in dialect B. Of course, if you want the measurements you make to be far from scientific, you can look at the statistical linguistics articles made for VM so far and produce a study that repeats the wrong measurements made there, that is another matter.
SAM/SEM in the VM is a word can be read as like SAM, SEM, ŞEM, ŞAM, SAĞN (saıın/sağn/sağın) based on ATA transcription.
We know that the author expressed the letters S and Ş with the same single letter sign and that two letters "ı" in the form of "ıı" together correspond to the letter "ğ" in modern Turkish. This is also compatible with the phonetics of Turkish, and there are many examples in historical manuscripts where two sounds are represented by a single sign.
(Since I have previously written about this issue with evidence and historical references in one of my notes here, I will not go into the same detail again.)
At the time when the VM texts were written, the book was not written so that everyone who saw it could read it easily. This is the reason why the author used a complex alphabet. These texts were written for a specific person or a few special people to read.
It has been mentioned in many articles by historians that many spies were sent to Europe by the Ottoman sultan Mehmet the Conqueror before and after 1453 in the Sulat Mehmet II time. We read the sentence on the map page, which was understood to have been written by the author of the VM texts, addressing some part of caftan that was worn by the sultan". This "sultan" was most likely Fatih Sultan Mehmet himself. We can prove through readings that there is also military information in the VM texts. Therefore, the VM manuscript is written by the author who is a healer/medicine maker as the profession, but we know that the purpose of writing was to record some military information. Historians have noted that Mehmet the Conqueror gave high importance to secrecy, and he did not give private and confidential information even to his closest relatives and commanders. For example, Fatih did not even tell his highest-level commanders where he would organize an expedition (declare war) or even while walking towards the war geography with his army.
In other words, these VM texts were not written to be read by everyone as fluently as reading a newspaper. For this reason, each line must have been read carefully and several times, considering transcription-like sound possibilities. In texts written in this way with an alphabet designed in this way, the fact that the syllable SAM/SEM is also written in the readable form of ŞEM, ŞAM, SAĞN (sağn/sağın). Which had been of no importance to both the writer and the special reader to read VM. They understood what was written in the texts.
At the same time, remember that in many languages, if a word has more than one meaning, the other words in the same sentence where that word is used do not create difficulty for the reader to understand. In this case, understanding the meaning of that word at a reading time requires a short thought process of less than seconds for the human brain.
In other words, the existence of a word that can be read as SAM/ŞEM/ŞAM/SAĞN (saın/sağn/sağın) according to the alphabet transcription that may have been pre-coded by the writer and reader, even though it was written in the form of SAM/SEM, did not prevent the understanding of the content meaning of the written sentence. Because even 600 years ago the special reader knew that he was holding a book in his hands, every sentence of which he had to read carefully. The most important and interesting part is that this alphabet used and each of the other pronunciation-phonetic forms of this word read as SAM had an equivalent in Turkish. You can also see this in dictionaries.
Words:
SAM (straw, grass/sap saman, ot): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
SEM (medicine/ilaç): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ŞAM (candle, wax, solid-parafin/mum): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ŞEM (candle, wax, beeswax, silver/mum, bal mumu, gümüş): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
SAĞIN (milking, lactating, milch, complete/sağmal, süt veren, sağım. tam): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
or
SAĞIM: (milking/sağım): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/url]
6>
In Turkish, we also use this suffix (SAM / SEM) to make wish and request modes or to establish conditional structures.
We can see this structure in the Harezmi dialect too. In the Harezmi Turkish dialect, we see the conditional mode -SEM / -SAM. In an article written by Prof. Dr. Aysu Ata, She gave some examples of words and sentences in the historic Harezmi dialect.
E.g;
t. şahıs erse men / ersem düşmÀnnı erse men (HŞ 4381), baàda ersem (HŞ 441) bar ersem (KE 144r16)
{You can see more example in this source: Harezm Turkish Morphology, Prof. Dr. Aysu Ata,<[url=https://www.turkcenindirilisi.com/turkce/harezm-turkcesi-sekil-bilgisi-ozellikleri-prof-dr-aysu-h95640.html]https://www.turkcenindirilisi.com/turkce/harezm-turkcesi-sekil-bilgisi-ozellikleri-prof-dr-aysu-h95640.html>}
In researcher Gürer Gülsevin's presentation in 1999, she was informed about "optative varieties" in Old (Anatolian) Turkish. In her statement, she shared some examples from Old Turkish.
Some of these are those:
2nd person singularity of optative varieties -sen
gele sen bunda saηa neη garazum yok işidür sen / kala sen anda yavuzdur yalıηuz kanda kalur sen (Mev.1,1) ...
1st person singularity of optative varieties -sam
senüηle meşveret kılsam gerekdür / bu derde çâreler bulsam gerekdür (Işk.3565)
2nd person singularity of optative varieties -sAη
bir kaç haslet birle ârâste olsaη gerek (Mrzb.64b.14)
In other words, it is known that this word suffix exists in Old Turkish and many academic sources provide this information. So, some people used to write this word suffix by combining it with the root word. However, it was also possible to write them separately. In this example, both are seen being together, as in VM texts.
{The Source: TDK-Fransız Anadolu Araştırmaları Enstitüsü, Osmanlı Türkçesi Öncesi : Eski Türkiye Türkçesi Toplantısı, İstanbul Aralık 1999, by Gürer Gülsevin,<You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>}
Included in the poetic form of 'koşuk', we often see the '- sam' request suffix.
E.g; Säbzvân Ķoşıķläri
145
Säbzvân m yoķ ekän sazäyläsäm
ķanatim yoķ ekän pärvâz äyläsäm
ķani meni yäħşi fe’lli yârginäm
taŋġdä barib aldigä zâr äläsäm
...
367
çärħ igirsäm çärħginäm äylänädi
uygä kirsäm saçginäm tolġanädi
ķoy suyib toylär birib algän yârim
kündiz ötib keçäsi ħuylänädi
368
käşki men uçär çibin bolsäm edi
ķayrilib ķabaġ gä ķonsäm edi
şunçäki rumal alib kiş kişläsä
öldirsä diydälärdän toysäm edi
527
ķari çaldi yer deb tutsäm ne morad
u ölsä men bivä ķalsäm ne morad
undän körä ŧaķa ötsäm yaħşiraķ
u minän men ŧila taķsäm yaħşiraķ
... etc ...
{You can see more example in this source: 'Säbzvân Ķoşıķläri', Ankara Unıversıty Socıal Scıences Instıtute Contemporary Turkısh Languages And Lıteratures Department, Yüksek Lisans Tezi. Yazar: Asaludin Nazamudin, Yıl: 2012 <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>}
7> Does this SAM / SAIIN spelling in VM have other meanings as a word suffix? Let's explain this detail more broadly. This word suffix in VMS was used to perform the following functions.
In VMS, That suffix that is added to the root is “-SAIIN”/ “-SAĞN” and/or “-SAM”, which are either suffixes that indicate the action’s owner as in you (second person) or me (first person). Technically, the suffix that was written by the author was directly and only “-SAIN”, yet it is important to understand that the “-IN” (and its phonetic and connotation equivalent “-IIN”) part of the suffix could both be pronounced as |em| (“-M”), or |en| (“-N”) during the time period in which the manuscript was written in. It makes essentially no difference as to the definition of the term, and only effects the description of the action’s owner. However, it is important to identify and explain both possibilities – despite the fact one is more relevant than the other – as both technically remain a possibility. In addition, the presence of “-SA-” (Clauson) as a portion of the suffix acts as an indicator that is the equivalent of the English term "IF" (Guise). In addition, “-sa-” suffix known as; "Forms Desiderative Denominal Verbs (No-men Actions (to wish))" (Clauson), and it is also important to keep in mind that the suffix “-SAN” can also sand as a root “SAN” which is defined as “(to): count, deem, think, suppose, and conjecture” etc (Eyuboğlu). Furthermore, based on some Azerbaijani dialects, an additional usage of the suffix “-SAIN” or “-SEİN” would be applicable to the time period in which the manuscript was written. In Turkish the suffix “SAIN” has comparable usages such as “-benzer”, “-gibi”, “-ya uygun”, “-ya müsait”, “-ya elverişli”. In English the translation would be “suitable to make something”, “convenient to make something”, “similar to something”, “such as”, “similarly”, and “like”.The suffix “-SAIN” (in Azerbaijani-Turkic it is |-SAĞIN| but in Anatolian Turkish it is |-SAĞI|, or |-SAĞI-| which equivalent of today's Turkish suffixes "-ımsı", "-sı", and "-ımtırak". Which in English “such as”, “similarly”, “like” and it also indicates actions for second person (Aksoy) and suffix “-SAN” indicates actions taken in second person. The suffix “-SAIN”/ “-SAN” is based on the word “SEN”, which can stand as a suffix or a root and is defined (in English) as “you” regardless of its role. The suffixes “-SAN”, “-SEN”, “-SAIN”, “-SEİN”, “-SUN”, and “-SÜN” all are derived from the word “SEN” and all define as “you” as they indicate an action’s owner in second person. The middle letters have changed due to different Turkic dialects forming throughout different geographic locations, yet despite all changes, the definitions are shared and supported by the Turkish Vowel and Consonant Harmony Rules.The conditional suffix “-SAM” indicates actions taken in first person. This suffix is directly described as “I/me” and is related to the suffixes “-SAM”, “-SIM”, “-SİM” or “-SEM” which all describe action’s owner to be “I, me, myself” (first person) (Guise).The suffix “-ĞN” (“-AĞN”/“-ĞIN”/ “-GİN”) is the phonetic equivalent of “-AĞIN / -EĞİN” due to the Turkish vowel harmony rule, for when the last letter of a root is a consonant, a vowel may be placed as a conjunction between the root and the suffix. These suffixes indicate prospect attainability, potentially achieving something, to be able to potentially attain/reach something, and expecting forthcoming form of something (-able). Sir Gerard Clauson in his book "Studies in Turkic and Mongolic Linguistics" (page 154) explained the suffixes “-ĞIN”, and “GİN” as: ["-ğın/-gin function uncertain; e.g. kev- "to masticate" > kevgin "indigestible"; rare and unproductive and probably very old."]. In addition, Sir Gerard Clauson explained in his book "An Etymological Dictionary of pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish" (Clauson) that:
{"-ğ the commonest Deverbal Suffix; forms a wide range of Deverbal Nouns and Noun/Adjectives, Nomen actiones, etc".}
Let me give two more examples from today's Anatolian Turkish, where the first and second-person singular request/wish modes are used, so you can see that the word suffix -SAM / -SEM, -SAN / SEN is also used in modern Turkish too.
The name of the author who wrote this poem: Niyazi Bilgin
Name of this poem: *Ne Yapsam Bilmiyorum* (* I Don't Know What To Do *)
[Source: Niyazi Bilgin <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>]
Note: I marked the words that repeat twice in this poem, in red. Also, the last voice of one of these repetitions has been lengthened. (example: of offfffff) All of these have also been seen in 600-year-old VM texts.
*Ne Yapsam Bilmiyorum*
Ne yapsam bilmiyorum...
Versem aklımı yem diye kuşlara.
Yatsam bir tren yolunun kenarında.
Çıkıp bir ağacın dalında uyusam.
Yolun ortasında oturup sigara içsem.
Arabamın el frenini açıp salsam caddeye.
Hiç durmadan koşsam çılgınca.
Duvarların üzerinde yürüsem
Ve durup durduk yere
Bağırsam birinin kulağına hiç yoktan.
Saçlarımı kazıtsam sıfıra
Ve yanımdan geçen birine atsam yumruğu.
Alıp başımı gitsem bilinmezliğe.
Girip bir saunaya saatlerce kalsam.
Gecenin bir saatinde gidip iş yerime çalışsam,
Ne işin var burada diyenleri dövsem.
Hiç durmadan sigara içsem.
Gitar çalsam delice.
Binanın tepesine çıkıp şehri izlesem.
Buz gibi suda yüzsem.
Müziğin sesini sonuna kadar açsam .
Kapıyı çalanlara açmasam kapıyı.
Yemek yesem çatlayana kadar.
Ağlasam gözyaşlarım kuruyana kadar
Ve birden başlasam gülmeye katıla katıla.
Bilgisayarda oyun oynasam,
Yenilince atsam camdan aşağıya.
Elbiselerimi değiştirip dursam
Ve her değiştirdiğimde ,
Arkadaşıma sorsam nasıl oldu diye.
Bütün renkleri karıştırsam birbirine;
Mavi hariç !!!
Ve serpsem bir tuvalin üstüne.
Dalında meyve koparsam,
Ve yoldan geçen birine versem.
Bisikletime binsem ve başka şehre gitsem.
Sonra tekerini patlatıp otostop çeksem,
Yarı yolda inip geri dönsem.
Bir taksiye binip şehri dolaşıp geri evime gelsem.
Uyusam hiç kalkmadan günlerce.
Sessiz sessiz otursam.
Kardeşimi ziyarete gitsem ,
Ve cebimde ne kadar para varsa hepsini ona Versem.
Elbiselerimi yırtıp otobüsçüye param olmadığımı söylesem,
Beni götürmesini istesem.
Gitmesem işe günlerce,
Daha sonra gece gündüz çalışsam.
Arabamın önüne pervane taksam ve uçmaya çalışsam,
Uçamayınca ağırlıktan olduğunu düşünüp
Pervaneyi elime alıp kendim uçmaya çalışsam.
Düşüp bir yerimi kırsam.
Alçılı alçılı dolaşsam aylarca.
Durmadan seni düşünsem
Düşünsem düşünsem...
of offfffffff
Neler yapsam bilmiyorum sensiz
Aslında bir sen olsan bir de ben...
Hiçbir şey yapmadan seni izlesem.
Niyazi Bilgin
The name of the author (who wrote the following poem): Cemal Süreyya (1931 - 1990)
Neme of this poem: *Sen Gelsen* (*if you come*)
[Source: Cemal Süreyya <You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>]
Note: In this poem, first person (-SAM/-SEK) singular, second (-SAN/-SEN) person singular, and third person plural present tense (-SAK/-SEK) request/wish modes suffixes were marked with blue. -SAK syllable is seen in VMS, just like SAN and SAM word suffixes.
Sen Gelsen
Şimdi açsam pencereyi beklesem
Sen gelsen
Olmaz ya hani geliversen
Hiç bir şey sormasan
Hiç bir şey söylemesen
Sussam
Sussan
Sussak.
Susuşların anlattığını dinlesek
Sırt sırta otursak
Katılasıya ağlasak
Sormasak birbirimize sebebini
Sarılsam
Sarılsan
Sarılsak.
Ve yine hiç bir şey konuşmasak
Ama anlasak
Ne vardı sahi
Olmaz ya
Hayal ya
Hani diyorum olsa ne vardı.
Dear researchers,
I can provide many examples of SAM/SEM words and word suffixes from both historical texts and modern Turkish. In fact, I could even write a book on this topic if I wanted to. However, it seems you will continue to try to evaluate or disregard Turkish using your knowledge of Indo-European languages. The word that is written as SAM has indeed been read. Like the others, this too is Turkish. The symbol resembling the number 8 at the beginning is read as "Sekiz" (Eight) in Turkish. The author has used the phonetic value of the first letter of the Turkish pronunciation of the numerals from 1 to 9 in their own alphabet.
None of this is a coincidence, and none of the 340 writing signs are for page decoration or ornamental purposes. You cannot correctly perform a single statistical comparison without correctly providing the sound values of the 340 sound signs, and thus you cannot read these texts either. Moreover, discussing how to read the texts that have already been read and proven to be Turkish is a serious waste of time. First, examine the evidence we have provided without ignoring it, and do so in a proper scientific manner without deviating from scientific methods and interpretations. Then, you will realize that the main work is already done. But if someone still says, "I cannot understand that the wall is hard unless I bang my head against it," let them examine the VM content as they wish for the next hundred years. The time lost is not mine; however, this nonsensical unscientific approach is delaying my process of translating the entire content. Fortunately, even if it is delayed, it cannot be stopped, because when I am gone from this world, the VM texts will still be read with the ATA alphabet transcription. Mathematics has warned you many times that such an overlap cannot be coincidental, but you still do not understand. You continue to ask questions that have already been answered, ignoring our work.
Best regards,
Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta
Note as an addition; The following words are the word equivalents appearing in Ötüken Dictionary, including the Ottoman Turkish section to English by Google
SAM
sam [sam / sim / som / söm (reflex.)].
1. The root that expresses angry grumbling, grumbling, sulking, in this way and by grumbling.
sam-ı-ra-mak, sam-ır-da-mak, sam-ır-tı, sam-ra-mak, sam-ır sumur
sam -mmı [Ar. semm (poison) > sāmm / sāmme] {OsT}.
سام 1. The hot wind blowing from the desert; sam wind
سامه 2. {eT} Mercury; sem; medicine. [ABTS]
3. {eT} Quackery.
sam (sa:m) {OsT} it is.
Sam 1. Rainbow.
2. Fire (or fever).
3. Possibility of a stupefying species.
4th p. {mouth} Exhausted; tired. [DS]
sam [? sam] {mouth} it is.
1. A boneless piece of meat. [DS]
sam [? sam] {mouth} it is.
1. A curved staff that becomes a yoke. [DS]
şam [sham] {dialect}.
1. Pine.
[Ar. şāme > şām] (şa:m) {OsT}.
شام 1. Evening.
şam-mmi [Ar. şemm (sniff) > şāmm / şāmme] {OsT} pg.
1. The one who smells; smelling.
شام
[Ar. şamʿa => şam] {mouth}.
1. Match.
2. Old waxed matches.
3. Mother.
4. Candlestick.
SEM/SEM
şem [şem (reflection)].
1. The root that initiates dog barking and shouting in this form.
şem-kir-mek
şem -m {OsT}.
1. Mother.
2. Beeswax.
shem -mmi {OsT}
شم 1. Smell; don't smell.
shem [Far. sĊm => şem]
1. Silver.
sem -m [Ar. semʿ] {OsT} it is.
سمع 1. Hearing; to listen; half.
2. Listening.
3. Ear.
sem [Ar. semm => sÂm] (se:m) {eT}.
سم 1. Medicine. [DLT]
1st pair. Each of the smallest semantic features formed by the parts of the genus of the meaning; meaning unit
sem -mmi {OsT} it is.
سم 1. Poison;
sagın [saġ-mak > saġ-ın] {eT} noun.
1. Milk; product is provided. [Nevâyî] [DLT]
sagın [sak-mak > saġ-ın] {eT} adj.
1. Intoxicated with love; lovesick; love madness.
right [sā-mak (count) > sa-ğ-ın] adj.
1. Not incomplete or inaccurate; correct, in accordance with the rules.
2. The word is wanted to be expressed, it is intended to be expressed and it is fully appropriate; authentic
your right becomes.
صاغم 1. {eAT} Milking; milking
2. {mouth} Milker. [DS]
[sahan / saan / milk].
Copper vessel used for meals. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 17-07-2024, 10:45 PM
(17-07-2024, 04:51 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I hope some people's mental health who already checked our specific VM findings but still ignore every detail of the multiple evidence we have presented.
Hi, Ahmet, I feel offended by your statement questioning mental health of those who dare to explore the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript is not written in Turkish. This is not the way to prove your theory. If you are so sure you are right, you should not be afraid of competition, unless are afraid that somebody would dig in too deep to discredit your theory.(17-07-2024, 04:51 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even if we assume that you have identified 5 or 6 {8am} on a page that you can show in manuscripts in European languages or Hebrew, you will first have to show that the same word appears in the same language in the same meaning such as using with the same meaning in the VM texts.
I suppose this remark was meant for me and my posting the document with five 8am words. You have challenged me to show more documents to prove the word 8am is spelled the same and has the same meaning in different language. There is plenty of proof for that, as there is plenty of proof in the 15th century European manuscript that the letter 8 stands for D, not S.
The only proof you offered is the meaning of the word SAM/SEM. We only have your word that the medieval Turkish spelling of the Latin letter D was S, or that the Latin letter D was pronounced as S. I am not disputing that the word SAM/SEM in Turkic is related to 'I am', since that is its meaning also in Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and many other Slavic languages.
In many Indo-European languages, the root DA/DAD is the foundation of many words related to giving. DA + suffix M (DAM) means I give in most Slavic languages.
Just because you have determined that DAM is Turkish word SAM does not make it so, no matter how many times you copy the explanation how SAM/SEM is used in Turkish.
[quote='Ahmet Ardıç' pid='60544' dateline='1721231461']
2- Old forms of European languages have 24 to 28 letters. Let's say there are 33 letters. And let's say there are 33 capital letters. In this case, the total will be 66 letters (340 - 66 = 274). Won't the remaining 274 writing signs have a phonetic value? Are all of them just decorating the pages?
Your claim that there are 340 different letters, which were so brilliantly written by the author that only you, and nobody else, could recognize and interpret them, is ridiculous and unscientific. Handwriting is not like typing or printing, so many unexpected mistakes, scratches, overflown ink, unintended lines, faded ink, etc., happen that can slightly change the shape of the letterform. It is also true that the author might have tried to form a ligature, but did not use it. Those extra 340 glyphs you isolated occur in the Voynich Manuscript only once. If they were part of the author's language or code, they would also be used in other words. There are about 35.000 words in the entire text, so the words with those 350 glyphs you claim to decode, are practically insignificant to understanding the rest of the text.
I suppose you never checked out any of the 15th century manuscript to see how various initials are embellished.
It is praiseworthy that you invited researchers to examine your theory, however your expectation that everybody must agree with you is unreasonable. Even more unreasonable is your expectation that with your theory the research into Voynich Manuscript must stop. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ruby Novacna > 18-07-2024, 01:01 AM
(17-07-2024, 04:51 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....however, this nonsensical unscientific approach is delaying my process of translating the entire content.
Interesting, so what is the relationship between finishing the translation and its acceptance by the members of this forum? -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 18-07-2024, 10:29 AM
(17-07-2024, 10:45 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(17-07-2024, 04:51 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I hope some people's mental health who already checked our specific VM findings but still ignore every detail of the multiple evidence we have presented.
Hi, Ahmet, I feel offended by your statement questioning mental health of those who dare to explore the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript is not written in Turkish. This is not the way to prove your theory. If you are so sure you are right, you should not be afraid of competition, unless are afraid that somebody would dig in too deep to discredit your theory.(17-07-2024, 04:51 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even if we assume that you have identified 5 or 6 {8am} on a page that you can show in manuscripts in European languages or Hebrew, you will first have to show that the same word appears in the same language in the same meaning such as using with the same meaning in the VM texts.
I suppose this remark was meant for me and my posting the document with five 8am words. You have challenged me to show more documents to prove the word 8am is spelled the same and has the same meaning in different language. There is plenty of proof for that, as there is plenty of proof in the 15th century European manuscript that the letter 8 stands for D, not S.
The only proof you offered is the meaning of the word SAM/SEM. We only have your word that the medieval Turkish spelling of the Latin letter D was S, or that the Latin letter D was pronounced as S. I am not disputing that the word SAM/SEM in Turkic is related to 'I am', since that is its meaning also in Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and many other Slavic languages.
In many Indo-European languages, the root DA/DAD is the foundation of many words related to giving. DA + suffix M (DAM) means I give in most Slavic languages.
Just because you have determined that DAM is Turkish word SAM does not make it so, no matter how many times you copy the explanation how SAM/SEM is used in Turkish.
[quote='Ahmet Ardıç' pid='60544' dateline='1721231461']
2- Old forms of European languages have 24 to 28 letters. Let's say there are 33 letters. And let's say there are 33 capital letters. In this case, the total will be 66 letters (340 - 66 = 274). Won't the remaining 274 writing signs have a phonetic value? Are all of them just decorating the pages?
Your claim that there are 340 different letters, which were so brilliantly written by the author that only you, and nobody else, could recognize and interpret them, is ridiculous and unscientific. Handwriting is not like typing or printing, so many unexpected mistakes, scratches, overflown ink, unintended lines, faded ink, etc., happen that can slightly change the shape of the letterform. It is also true that the author might have tried to form a ligature, but did not use it. Those extra 340 glyphs you isolated occur in the Voynich Manuscript only once. If they were part of the author's language or code, they would also be used in other words. There are about 35.000 words in the entire text, so the words with those 350 glyphs you claim to decode, are practically insignificant to understanding the rest of the text.
I suppose you never checked out any of the 15th century manuscript to see how various initials are embellished.
It is praiseworthy that you invited researchers to examine your theory, however your expectation that everybody must agree with you is unreasonable. Even more unreasonable is your expectation that with your theory the research into Voynich Manuscript must stop.
Dear Cvetka,
You have once again taken what I wrote, distorted it, and interpreted it as if I wrote things I did not say. Don't do that. The sentences I wrote and the ones you presented as if I wrote are different and have different meanings. You either do not understand what you read or are trying to show things that were never written as if they were.
I am saying, "Despite the linguistic evidence we have presented, I hope that those who examine these yet ignore them and still search for the same evidence are in sound mind."
This is a criticism, and I did not say, as you wrote; "health of those who dare to explore the possibility that the Voynich Manuscript is not written in Turkish." These two sentences are different both in structure and meaning.
Finding the phonetic structure of the syllable or word {8am} in European manuscripts means nothing outside of anagram reading in the case of the VM. For it to mean something other than an anagram, you must first prove that the VM is a European manuscript. Then you must prove that the findings you discovered in whichever language's manuscript apply to the VM manuscript in that language. Then to do this, you need to show that the alphabet transcription you have works correctly by freely reading numerous sentences and words from randomly chosen pages. You also need to show drawing-word overlaps, and that you can read entire pages. But to prove you're not doing this as an anagram, you need to show that each word in every sentence you read corresponds phonetically and semantically with the words you claim in the relevant language by finding and showing these words in that language’s dictionaries.
This is exactly what we have done. So, stop presenting things I didn't write as if I had written them. Instead, keep demonstrating that your finding, which you show as evidence that the VM could be written in a European language, is not an anagram and that the VM texts are indeed in that language.
The best way to avoid confusion in scientific research is by planning and sticking to the plan. You probably all know this already. But for some reason, you're unable to stick to your plan. Now, those 5 instances of the word {8am} you mentioned, is it in Slovenian? Croatian? Serbian? Or which Slavic language or which European manuscript is it read from? In your work plan, you must specifically show that the VM texts are written in that specific language you mentioned. You cannot prove that these texts are in a European language by taking one word from Italian, another from Greek, another from German, and another from Serbian. To proceed this way, you must first assert that there is a common European language and prove that the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root language existed in the past. Linguists, for example, couldn't manage this. The existence of the PIE root language in the past is just an assumption. It is a convenient notion for linguists, proposing that around 200 or 300 words (varying among the compared European languages, we can't even talk about 100 common words in all 400 languages) are common across approximately 400 languages. Yes, these words might be from a common root in Indo-European languages, but even that past common root being Indo-European is debatable.
In the meantime, be careful not to explain the results of your scientific studies in a double-standard manner like your linguists do.
For example; While science, through its comparative studies between languages using the same method, can claim that about 400 "Indo-European languages" could have a common root based on 100 words common across all these languages, it declared that the Sumerian language has no living relatives despite approximately 1700 common words between Sumerian and Turkish. Moreover, there are common words between Sumerian and Turkish in body part names, numerals, star names, god names, animal and plant names, action words, and many other areas. Linguist and historian Arif Cengiz Erman has identified about 1300 of these words and presented them in his books and articles, showing that they overlap both semantically and phonetically.
Unfortunately, European linguistics and historiography are somewhat double-standard. So is your IE history.
You called the period, that caused the death of millions of Indigenous people in America to be exploited for gold, land, and economic resources, "the discovery of America." And you celebrate this day every year. Your way of writing history strokes European pride but forgets that the greatest conflicts in history started with injustices.
So, don’t get me wrong; I didn’t write these for you. I wrote these so that you, as "Europeans", learn or remember that your way of writing history and linguistics is somewhat distant from the truth and full of distorted definitions or naming. There’s no need to think so Eurocentrically regarding the VM.
Linguists, according to the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language hypothesis, propose that approximately 400 different languages descended from a common ancestral language in the past. The number of words claimed to be common across all of these 400 languages (within the intersection set) ranges from approximately 60 to 100.
However, ancient peoples who didn’t know the numerals or, even if they knew, were influenced by the languages of neighboring peoples who taught them mathematics, could very well have borrowed these name words from the languages of neighboring peoples. Or, in naming body parts, the phonetic structure in the neighboring people's language could be adopted and, after some time, replace their naming in their language. Claiming that certain groups of words cannot transfer from one language to another and attributing special importance to them completely contradicts logic. Such deductions, although they seem reasonable, fundamentally contradict reason and science. So, your linguistics, no matter how fanciful it appears, is built upon false assumptions.
Why is this so? When the British, who wanted to exploit the resources of India, were working to economically colonize India in the 1700s, the resistance and willingness to fight from the Indians became an issue. To eliminate this desire, a PIE theory was proposed, ordered by politicians to academics, to say "Our ancestors and our language are common." This distorted political construct is what you’ve built an entire field of linguistics upon. However, your theories that lull and numb your people aren’t even respected in some parts of the world.
Don’t be surprised at what I wrote. Try to be open to alternative thoughts. If you prove that PIE is a common root language, try to match a few words from each European language across the 240 pages of the VM. Maybe this way, you won’t just solve the texts of the VM but also support the PIE theories written by your ancestors for political purposes, with the existence of a 600-year-old book.
Anyway, let's not prolong the subject. Stop declaring things I didn't write as if I did, and focus on your research. Perhaps with some effort, you and the other group members might have the chance to prove the existence of the PIE root language so that following this difficult task, you can gather material to finally explain which European language the VM texts are in.
Thanks, -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 18-07-2024, 10:44 AM
As I explained before, I think that VM Turkish sentence structures incorporate words from European languages. For example, I believe that in a sentence structured with 14 Turkish words, there might be one or two non-Turkish words. Of course, I am not saying that this occurs in every sentence. For example, this was not observed on page 33v, where all the words were Turkish. However, I think that, including geographical region names and personal names, words from European languages, probably ancient Italian/Latin or Greek, were present in the author's language, and these are reflected in the VM texts. The author was likely multilingual. I believe I can get help from researchers in this group to identify the words in other languages. This is because, primarily, there is a multilingual research group representing European languages here, and these people are also making efforts to decipher the VM texts. Most experts in Old Turkish working in the field of Turkology (almost all of them) do not know Old Greek or Latin, and I predict that I can only get this assistance from researchers who know European languages. Therefore, quickly verifying and discussing the evidence we have presented to the finest detail, and understanding the overlaps indicating that the texts are in Turkish, will accelerate the process of translating the texts into the modern language.
In addition, the author of VM is a traveler in European geography and must have written this work during his travels. Therefore, this manuscript must be important for Europeans, other than the Turks (and perhaps even more so), to learn about their daily lives 600 years ago, medical practices or medicine practices regarding women's health and pregnant women, and some other events. This is a common cultural work and I think it would produce more successful results if the reading was done jointly. For this reason, a joint effort by hundreds of people to look at the content of the texts with correct alphabet transcription can help us get clearer results. Do not forget that the structure that explains how the syllabic characters are read, which we have introduced, enables 316 syllabic characters to be read correctly. These are now demonstrated by our reading studies. We read even the strangest sound images with long linear structures with the same method find their word equivalents in dictionaries and show them.
Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror spoke and wrote in 6 or 7 different languages fluently, including Greek and Latin, from his childhood alongside his native Turkish. It is said that he took notes on some old manuscripts he read (usually on the back page). I suppose that the VM texts were written for Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror and that the alphabet may have been developed by the author together with Sultan Mehmed.
Sultan Mehmet himself was acquiring and reading Latin and Greek books. It can be thought that he used words from these languages together with Turkish in his daily life. I think that the note on the last page of the VM was addressed to Sultan Mehmet or may have been written by Sultan Mehmet himself. I have read most of the words on the last page, but I would not prefer to translate the entire page right now because of a few words. I'll do this when I find all these words in dictionaries. But I guess the words I can't read on this page are probably Latin or Greek.
Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror's library and some of the books found there;
Literary Works such as "Some of the Poetry books",
works of Homeros, Hasiros, and Pindaros,
Various religious texts (mentioned but exact titles not specified), Military Books, Scientific, and Mathematical Works
Astronomy and mathematics books
Books on ancient civilizations like Rome and Greek
Language Books such as "Books in Latin, Italian, and Ancient Greek"
Mineralogy books
Books on cartography and geography
Books on calculations & engineering design for cannons,
Books on the lives of Roman and Byzantine emperors
A history book covering the years 1320 to 1356
Ancient Greek grammar and dictionary books
(It is known that more than 40 Greek books have survived to the present day. I need to find and examine them and see if there are notes added by Fatif on the back pages. Moreover, it is necessary to compare his writing with the pen on the VM last page of the VM. I have not had time for this work yet. If anyone wants to support the research, we can save time.)
During his reign, Fatih Sultan Mehmet played a significant role in collecting and preserving books. Here are some key points regarding his contributions to this aspect:
> Building a Library: Fatih Sultan Mehmet established libraries and collections of books during his reign. He placed great importance on the preservation and dissemination of knowledge.
> Personal Interest: Fatih had a strong personal interest in books and knowledge, which influenced his efforts to collect and preserve valuable manuscripts and texts.
> Cultural Preservation: His initiatives helped in preserving cultural and historical heritage by safeguarding important literary works and documents.
> Promotion of Learning: By building libraries and supporting scholarly activities, Fatih Sultan Mehmet encouraged the growth of education and intellectual pursuits in his empire.
Overall, Fatih Sultan Mehmet's endeavors in collecting and preserving books played a crucial role in enriching intellectual life, preserving cultural heritage, and promoting learning during his reign.
Some historians also mention the presence of various works, including a medical treatise from 1468 and a renowned surgical text by Sabuncuoğlu, which offers insights into both theoretical knowledge and practical illustrations in the field of medicine during that time.
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In the light of recent research, it has now become a historical fact that the Ottomans have benefited from intelligence since their founding. That quality II. It became more evident during Mehmed's reign (1444-1446; 1451-1481), and significant changes took place in the course of Ottoman intelligence. For example, in this period, parallel to the increase in the territory of the empire, intelligence activities spread over a wider area. Ottoman intelligence, which was only occupied with military matters, now began to serve the purpose of learning about developments outside of war. The natural reflection of expansion was the diversification of information channels. Especially the conquest of Istanbul and its becoming the capital contributed greatly to this diversification.
II. Tursun Bey (after d.1491), who prepared a monograph about Mehmed, also made statements about the active functioning of the Sultan's information channels during the conquest of Istanbul. F. Babinger, in his biography of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror, pointed out that he even obtained intelligence from the Italian artists he invited to his palace.
See the article: Ottoman Empire Intelligence and Security -17th Century
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The signature marks used as the tamga (damga/stamp) signature of the ruler in Turkish states are called "TUĞRA". These marks are considered the signatures of the rulers. You can see on a page in the childhood notebook of Mehmed the Conqueror how he designed his own signature mark. Many historians know that some writings in Arabic letters were used in Ottoman Tuğras. However, as you can see, when Mehmed designed his own signature, he also utilized Greek letters. I don't know if any historian has previously drawn attention to this detail, but Mehmed the Conqueror, during his childhood, used Greek letters or a combination of Greek and Arabic letters in one of the designs of his tuğra mark. This design is evidence that Mehmed was inclined to design syllable and word images using different alphabets and Tamgas. He may have given this idea to the author of the Voynich Manuscript before starting his activities in Europe. Or, the two may have designed the VM alphabet together. This is a possibility but Mehmed the Conqueror clearly did similar work in his childhood notebook. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ruby Novacna > 18-07-2024, 01:17 PM
I'm curious to know how many people write under Ahmet Ardıç's profile? Normally each participant should have their own profile. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
R. Sale > 18-07-2024, 04:25 PM
Instead of such lengthy disputation, I would much prefer a few short results.
I think the different parts of the VMs text should be prioritized for translation.
My selections would include the wheel and spokes of the VMs cosmos, the three circular bands of text in the VMs Zodiac that are designated by Stolfi's markers, and the main band of circular text in the central VMs Rosette.
If anyone believes they have a translation system that works, let's have a demonstration based on the prioritized texts.