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Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
- Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
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RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 16-04-2022, 08:14 PM
(16-04-2022, 01:57 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-04-2022, 12:49 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stick to the facts.
The 1970 statement is outdated and not true.
Erkruskers are Europeans. More precisely, they are northern Italians.
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I am beginning to suspect that you are trying to justify your theory about the history of 4000 years and by scraping together words from all over the Near East.
There is no connection between VM and Turkish, and yes, the Europeans came from the East 40,000 years ago. But that's probably not it.
I think you've got yourself into something too, and you're stuck.
[I agree with you on your general point about where this is all going (and where it's coming from), but since the other thread on this issue included a lengthy diatribe that we Europeans are going around "claiming" languages, I just wanted to flag that the Etruscan language is unlikely to be Indo-European.
Very little is known about Etruscan's origin. We can read its words aloud because it uses an earlier version of the alphabet. We even know the meaning of a small range of words thanks to comparative texts. While the range is very small due to paucity of Etruscan texts, the words show enough differences with the various branches of Indo-European for the general consensus amongst linguists to be that Etruscan is probably not an Indo-European language.
But the range is also too small for any respectable theory connecting it to another big language family. There are no grounds for saying Etruscan is Turkic or indeed part of any big language family. It is doubtful that we will ever know what family it belonged to. There simply isn't enough linguistic material to do a proper comparison. Any such theories are just fringe theories.
In terms of the Etruscan people (worth noting that language origin doesn't always correlate with genetic origin, even if it seems likely), there have been theories about where they came from for millennia. The standard two alternatives seem to be that they had been indigenous to the area for a long time, or they migrated from the Near East, which was not Turkic at the time. It seems every few years there's a new DNA analysis of corpses or cattle arguing one or the other.]
Dear Tavie,
We already know that there were those who linked the Etruscan scripts to the Indo-European language family with a few anagrams of fictitious reading. We should also say that all the Etruscan texts unearthed correspond to the Turkic language or are read in Turkish. In my comment above, I referenced the names and work of some of the scientists who made these readings. So if you don't see a difference between reading a few words anagrams and reading all the texts, that's your opinion.
In fact, readings in Voynich texts had progressed almost in a similar way. If you want it to be one of the European languages, if you give name the transcription like "European Voynich Alphabet" ( which means you are allowing a pre-created direction to control your perceptions) and if you do not take into account the language of the Turks, (who lived closest to Europe) in your "scientific studies", you will either not get results or you will make claims by reading 10 words as anagrams. This is pretty clear to me.
There is no such thing as opposing genetic outcomes in this issue. There are cases where the genetic results are skewed in the articles written. For example, you can write that there are mixed peoples in the geography you see R1b. Or, instead of saying Turks & Turkish, you can say, "It can overlap with the examples taken from many different ethnic groups living in Anatolia, including the Armenian, Greek and Kurdish (minorities)." We also clearly see this kind of biased writing style. It can be seen in Western pseudo-scientific articles coming from academic base usually. It is no different between deviating from reality were using such paths with an ostrich sticking its head in the sand to avoid seeing the truth.
If you are happy with what you can see and what is in your head, of course, do not disturb your comfort at all. Happiness is good and we don't want to miss it with our articles.
Kind regards -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 16-04-2022, 08:31 PM
(16-04-2022, 08:02 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I don't need any more proof of that. You have just brought it.
You are just trying to justify your language theory with a migration from the Bronze Age 4000 years ago. But it doesn't work like that. It still has no connection to the VM.]
Of course, there is no connection between the Etruscans and the Voynich manuscript. We did not say that there is a connection between these two. But if you look at the Etruscan Runic inscriptions, you'll see that they largely overlap with the Turkish Runic inscriptions. Even though there are thousands of years of difference between the same signs, the researchers I named already read Etruscan writings by matching them to the same or very close sound value. Our goal is not to convince you of a certain idea. In fact, I don't really care whether you believe the information we provide or not. In fact, if a large majority believes in a certain information and a small minority gives information that makes the opposite statement, I would like to go out of my comfort zone and examine these contradictory information thoroughly. Of course, some do not do this when they think their own knowledge is the absolute and only correct one. This is understandable. In fact, you won't believe them even when academies begin to say that we read the Voynich texts. I think that because this goes against the image in your head. However, I have been working on old Turkish languages and scripts for about 30 years and I think the clear results we have achieved in this field are about to be accepted by academies.
Kind regards -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 19-04-2022, 08:03 PM
One more star name match with the illustration: ÜLGER
According to the ATA alphabet transcription, this word can be read as ULGER, ÜLGER, ULGAR.
This word is shown in dictionaries to mean "MorningStar".
ULGAR pronunciation of the word is the name of a settlement area in Anatolia and also a plant name.
(This plant name or synonymous is "süsen" in Turkish).
< Please see the on-line dictionary source pages: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. >
ULGER = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ÜLGER = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ULGAR = You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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This word was read on page 73v. A female figure drawn in the place where this word (ülger/ulger), which means "morning star", and it was drawn as if holding a star or pointing.
Thus, we are approaching about 100 illustration name match.
Of course, this number will increase much more.
Thanks, -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ruby Novacna > 19-04-2022, 09:01 PM
Thank you, Ahmet, for pointing out the location of the word, I even found the same word on 107v. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
DonaldFisk > 20-04-2022, 12:44 AM
(16-04-2022, 07:43 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linguist Prof. Dr. Firudin Celilov also read the writings of Etruscan civilization. Also, the language of the Etruscan civilization is not from the Indo-European language family, but is definitely a Turkic language. For this reason, we can read the remaining writings of them.
The meanings of just over 200 Etruscan words are known with certainty. Etruscan is known to be related to Lemnian and Rhaetic (which we know even less about) and no other languages, past or present. The most reliable textbooks on Etruscan are Zikh Rasna by Rex Wallace and The Etruscan Language by Giuliano and Larissa Bonfante. I am using Etruscan vocabulary from these, and Proto-Turkic vocabulary from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Below are English / Etruscan / Proto-Turkic where the known vocabularies overlap.
one, two, three, four, five / thu, zal, ci, sha, mach / *bīr, *ẹk(k)i, *üč, *tȫrt, *bẹ̄ĺ(k)
i, you / mi, un / *ben, *sen
not / ei / *ermeŕ
mother, father / ati, apa / *apa, *ata
see, say, give, die / mal-, trin-, tur-, lup- / *kör-, *āy-, *bēr-, *öl-
star, lake, water / pulum, tishsh, thi / *yulduŕ, *kȫl, *sub
day, year / tin, avil / *kün, *yāĺ(*yïl)
good / mlach / *edgü
Except for possibly the words for year, I can't see any resemblance. Among related languages, there will be some resemblances among You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. core vocabulary words.
Turkic languages might for all I know have some grammatical similarities with Etruscan, but that proves very little. For example, Modern English has some grammatical similarities with Chinese (lack of gender, word order) but a core vocabulary comparison (as I've done above for Etruscan and Proto-Turkic) will show they too are unrelated. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 20-04-2022, 12:51 PM
(19-04-2022, 09:01 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Thank you, Ahmet, for pointing out the location of the word, I even found the same word on 107v.]
You are welcome.
Thank you for reading. Yes, the same words can be repeated on different pages.
Today, I talked about this issue at the Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences at the Institute of Linguistics in Baku.
After my presentation, they gave me a certificate of appreciation.
In other words, linguists studying the Turkish language are slowly starting to realize the existence of such VM book.
The whole process is progressing very positively.
Kind regards, -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ruby Novacna > 20-04-2022, 01:09 PM
I am happy for you, seeing your efforts appreciated gives you the courage to continue and especially to increase your output. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 20-04-2022, 05:20 PM
(20-04-2022, 12:44 AM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-04-2022, 07:43 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linguist Prof. Dr. Firudin Celilov also read the writings of Etruscan civilization. Also, the language of the Etruscan civilization is not from the Indo-European language family, but is definitely a Turkic language. For this reason, we can read the remaining writings of them.
[The meanings of just over 200 Etruscan words are known with certainty. Etruscan is known to be related to Lemnian and Rhaetic (which we know even less about) and no other languages, past or present. The most reliable textbooks on Etruscan are Zikh Rasna by Rex Wallace and The Etruscan Language by Giuliano and Larissa Bonfante. I am using Etruscan vocabulary from these, and Proto-Turkic vocabulary from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Below are English / Etruscan / Proto-Turkic where the known vocabularies overlap.
one, two, three, four, five / thu, zal, ci, sha, mach / *bīr, *ẹk(k)i, *üč, *tȫrt, *bẹ̄ĺ(k)
i, you / mi, un / *ben, *sen
not / ei / *ermeŕ
mother, father / ati, apa / *apa, *ata
see, say, give, die / mal-, trin-, tur-, lup- / *kör-, *āy-, *bēr-, *öl-
star, lake, water / pulum, tishsh, thi / *yulduŕ, *kȫl, *sub
day, year / tin, avil / *kün, *yāĺ(*yïl)
good / mlach / *edgü
Except for possibly the words for year, I can't see any resemblance. Among related languages, there will be some resemblances among You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. core vocabulary words.
Turkic languages might for all I know have some grammatical similarities with Etruscan, but that proves very little. For example, Modern English has some grammatical similarities with Chinese (lack of gender, word order) but a core vocabulary comparison (as I've done above for Etruscan and Proto-Turkic) will show they too are unrelated.]
Dear Fisk,
The number or quality of matching words is not the only sign that the two languages may have a unity of origin. In addition to this, there must be other overlaps. I show them below and I will write some of the resources I have benefited from here. But know that the number of words that overlap between Turkish and Etruscan language is much higher.
TURKISH > ETRUSKIC STRUCTURAL SIMILARITY
These common features are:
1) Voice harmony,
2) Absence of gender,
3) Absence of article (letter describe/definition preposition)
4) Conjugation of the verb with suffixes;
5) Use of possessive/property suffix in conjugation;
6) The richness of verb forms;
7.) No (or not much) prefixes such as Turkish (but not like similar as in Indo-European languages)
8) Adjectives are before nouns;
9) Not using plurals after numbers;
10) Using the form from in comparison;
11) using the verb "to be", that is -imek, as an auxiliary verb;
12) Finding special verbs with negative meaning;
13) Having a question word-suffix;
14) It is the existence of verb forms that serve as bonds
(Source: A. Ayda; 2020:167).
Some words are also matched with Turkish in this source which your list is not have thos.
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What list you have written is nothing but explanations consisting of incomplete and incorrect information written in the books and articles you read in the West. The majority of the words in the Etruscan language are those found in Turkic languages. In today's modern Turkey Turkish, more than the words known as Etruscan - Turkish overlap as you list, which you refer here, clearly overlap. You can read about them in the sources I cited earlier. (But all of the source books are in Turkish.)
In order to see similarity, it is necessary to stop examining Turkish words as if examining Indo-European words.
For example, the Etruscan word "ten+eke-/teneke", which is not on your list, means "DAY" (sunup/sunrise/peep out of day and-or day). According to linguists, the Etruscan word "TİN" also means "day". The same scholars say that the Etruscan word "TİNİA" also means "day". The Etruscan word "TESAN" means "dawn". The word must have been converted from the compound word *TENSAN. The root of the word must have turned into TİN and TEN in different dialects because both have a common semantic content.
The word TEN still lives in the Turkish language as TAN. This word was transformed into Indo-European languages from the "*DAN" form and took the form of DAWN.
In fact, in the Etruscan language, both "TİN-" and "TEN" mean "day". Because in the Etruscan language, words were probably living in their forms that changed their sound forms between periods and dialects. (See: < You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.> page 59) This situation is exactly the same today.
The root of this word is the word "TEN-". In the modern Turkish language, these sound forms are separated and their meaning contents are also divided. For example, the Etruscan word "TEN-" has been transformed into the forms "TAN", "TÜN", "KÜN-" and "GÜN-" in different dialects of the Turkish language. The TUN/TÜN or KÜN form of these words survives in the Indo-European languages today as SUN.
May be you can not see the words "TİN" and "TEN" in the sources you look at. Even if you see them, they do not write that they are a unity of origin with the Turkish language. Etymology stories written for almost all of your words that you have connected to the imaginary language called PIE are mostly guesses, similes, anagrams or fabrications.
There are the words IŞIK and IŞIL in the Turkish language. It means "light" and "sun" in English. But linguists think that the word does not mean "sun" but simply "light". Since they do not know how the roots of words are born by gaining meaning content, they prefer to make up instead of saying we don't know.
This word is USİL and UŞİL in Etruscan language. In other words, this word still lives in the same meaning in Turkish as IŞIL / IŞIK for thousands of years. In addition, the word ISI / ISIL (temperature, heat) in Turkish is probably derived from the same common root, but linguists do not write it. This word has evolved into the form *ISOL or USOL to SOL in Latin.
In other words, the common Etruscan root of these words is the word USIL/*USOL and the real root is Pre-Sumerian Turkic Root language but not PIE for sure. These words had been enabled the derivation of words with close sound value and meaning content in the Sumerian language.
When we say this, we are not moving from a few words. More than half of the old vocabulary of many languages such as Arabic, Persian, English, German, Latin has been borrowed from the Turkic root language. Linguistics does not have enough knowledge about Turkish to accept this today.
They could not even match the Etruscan words TİN and TEN with the Turkish words TAN and KÜN. However, the phonetic and semantic closeness between them is quite clear. As they cannot see this, they cannot see that more than half of the vocabulary of the Etruscan language can be easily connected to the same root language. There are reasons for this too.
It is necessary to analyze Turkish words by separating them into root and suffixes. Most linguists do not know this. Because Turkish words should not be studied as if examining the words of a language group that has been relatively formalized in the last periods of the linguistic history of humanity, such as Indo-European languages.
Today, our linguists make more Etruscan and Turkish and Sumerian Turkish word matches in every new article they write. These numbers will increase as older texts are read and minor errors in transcriptions are corrected.
Other resources / some words are also matched with Turkish in this source which your list is not have those.
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&
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&
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&
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See the word TAN here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See the word "GÜN ağarması" here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See the word GÜN here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
See the word KÜN here; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
Ahmet Ardıç > 20-04-2022, 05:33 PM
(20-04-2022, 01:09 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[I am happy for you, seeing your efforts appreciated gives you the courage to continue and especially to increase your output.]
Thank you.
One of my biggest desire is to be interested only in linguistics without having to do any other work in the course of life one day.
In fact, I would like to participate in academic activities as a student again on this subject.
Unfortunately, our wishes are not always fulfilled. -
RE: Calgary engineer believes he's cracked the mysterious Voynich Manuscript
DonaldFisk > 20-04-2022, 10:42 PM
(20-04-2022, 05:20 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The number or quality of matching words is not the only sign that the two languages may have a unity of origin. In addition to this, there must be other overlaps. I show them below and I will write some of the resources I have benefited from here. But know that the number of words that overlap between Turkish and Etruscan language is much higher.
So what are these words?
(20-04-2022, 05:20 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
TURKISH > ETRUSKIC STRUCTURAL SIMILARITY
These common features are:
1) Voice harmony,
2) Absence of gender,
3) Absence of article (letter describe/definition preposition)
4) Conjugation of the verb with suffixes;
5) Use of possessive/property suffix in conjugation;
6) The richness of verb forms;
7.) No (or not much) prefixes such as Turkish (but not like similar as in Indo-European languages)
8) Adjectives are before nouns;
9) Not using plurals after numbers;
10) Using the form from in comparison;
11) using the verb "to be", that is -imek, as an auxiliary verb;
12) Finding special verbs with negative meaning;
13) Having a question word-suffix;
14) It is the existence of verb forms that serve as bonds
(Source: A. Ayda; 2020:167).
1) Etruscan didn't have vowel harmony. Finnish does, but isn't related to Turkish
2) Only Indoeuropean and Afroasiatic languages have genders. Etruscan did have gender in personal names. Chinese lacks genders and is unrelated to Turkish.
3) Etruscan had an enclitic definite article (Wallace p63). Latin and Russian lack articles and are unrelated to Turkish.
4) There were only endings in Etruscan for tense and voice, not for person or number. Greek has rich verb forms, and is unrelated to Turkish.
5) I don't know what you mean by this.
6) See 4.
7) I don't know what you mean by this.
8) Adjectives generally came after nouns in Etruscan.
9) Sometimes nouns are in plural when qualified by a number (Bonfante p100), sometimes not (Bonfante p67).
10) No known inscriptions with comparisons.
11) No evidence, and the verb root for "to be" was "am-". This is well-known.
12) No evidence.
13) No evidence. No known inscriptions with questions.
14) I don't know what you mean by this.
Before replying, I suggest you read either the books by the Bonfantes and Rex Wallace (the best introductions to the Etruscan language) to learn what is accepted by scholars, rather than fringe theories. Also, please quote sources written in English. Not many people here will know Turkish.
None of this helps your case with the Voynich Manuscript.