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• RE: f13r - banana?

  MarcoP > 12-01-2018, 05:13 PM

  Thank you all for the interesting discussion. It seems clear that the various Latin manuscripts are related. The text in BNF Lat 6823 (Manfredus de Monte Imperiali) describes Musa as having "leaves similar to those of elecampane [enula], but longer and larger; [it has] long and thick stems on which it makes fruits that look like cucumbers". The effect is very similar to what we observed when discussing Trinity MS.O.2.48; the text was apparently written by someone who had seen a banana palm tree and tried to describe it making reference to plants that were common in Europe. While I don't see why choosing elecampane in particular, cucumber makes perfect sense as a parallel for the shape and size of banana. The illustrator who started this tradition (possibly in Lat 6823) had no idea of what a banana palm tree looks like, he could only follow the text: the result is an elecampane with cucumber-like fruits.
  
  I don't know if VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was meant to represent banana, but it certainly doesn't belong to the same tradition as the Latin manuscripts. If it was meant to represent banana, it appears to have been produced by someone who had seen the plant or a good illustration of it.

• RE: f13r - banana?

  -JKP- > 12-01-2018, 06:14 PM

  (12-01-2018, 05:13 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you all for the interesting discussion. It seems clear that the various Latin manuscripts are related. The text in BNF Lat 6823 (Manfredus de Monte Imperiali) describes Musa as having "leaves similar to those of elecampane [enula], but longer and larger; [it has] long and thick stems on which it makes fruits that look like cucumbers". The effect is very similar to what we observed when discussing Trinity MS.O.2.48; the text was apparently written by someone who had seen a banana palm tree and tried to describe it making reference to plants that were common in Europe.
  ...

  
  I completely agree, and the reference to a cucumber is apt because bananas are picked when they are green, the color of cucumbers (bananas that are ripened on the tree are not safe for humans to eat).

• RE: f13r - banana?

  Koen G > 12-01-2018, 08:43 PM

  (12-01-2018, 05:13 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know if VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was meant to represent banana, but it certainly doesn't belong to the same tradition as the Latin manuscripts. If it was meant to represent banana, it appears to have been produced by someone who had seen the plant or a good illustration of it.

  
  This is precisely what I was planning to answer in response to VViews' post, but you beat me to it
  
  It's one of those things the VM does: there are fascinating links with existing herbals, but only for a number of individual plants. So the VM is somehow aware of, or affected by the tradition, but it does much more as well. And either way, I have never seen a plant like this drawn in another herbal, so no matter which ID we propose, we're on Voynich private territory. 
  
  Given the accuracy of certain parts of the drawing, I also think it's one of these three options:
  - Made from a detailed description
  - Made from a decent drawing
  - Made by an eyewitness
  
  As I tried to demonstrate in the opening post, special attention is given to those features which are important for the maintenance and/or propagation of banana plants. Since the sings of planned human interference are there, I'd say that it's almost definitely drawn from a "plantation" rather than from the wild. This might have been one of those places in or close to Europe where efforts were made to grow bananas.

• RE: f13r - banana?

  -JKP- > 12-01-2018, 09:28 PM

  A couple more observations...
  
  The color of the bulbous part of the banana (red) is a good match for the VMS, but some species of Petasites do have reddish roots and I've seen some that are quite jug-like (rounded).
  
  But... there's typically only one stalk coming from each banana bulb, and the "tuft" of the dead flower on the end of the banana doesn't look like the VMS drawing. Also, only someone who had actually seen a growing banana tree would have drawn it with a tuft on the end. These fall off when they are harvested and transported. It seems unlikely that someone describing the plant for someone else to draw would mention the tuft—it's the fruit that is of interest and the tuft is a minor detail that quickly disappears.
  
  
  Petasites plants do have several "cut points" on each tuber, where the leaves are harvested, and the flowers do have this general shape (some species more than others).
  
  
  Also note the roundness of the VMS leaves, not common to banana, but common to a number of Petasites species.
  
  The banana flower is quite different from the shape of the fruit so the drawing is not likely to be banana flowers, it looks more like the fruit. Bananas don't typically have fruit stalks that are straight and high above the leaves. As soon as there is fruit, even small fingerlings, they sag downward.

• RE: f13r - banana?

  VViews > 13-01-2018, 05:33 AM

  JKP,
  looking around for Petasites I noticed that someone had proposed this identification in 2012. Thought you'd like to know!
  I hadn't come across this blog before: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Unfortunately the author doesn't go into much detail about the ID, but still thought I'd mention it here.
  
  Now what would be really nice would be to be able to compare this with a medieval drawing of Petasites.

• RE: f13r - banana?

  Koen G > 13-01-2018, 10:29 AM

  VViews: I hadn't seen that blog either. It's strange though, his only reason for dismissing earlier banana ID's is that fact that "The banana was introduced ito Asia and Europa after the time the manuscript was produced." 
  
  JKP: Banana does produce several stalks from the same corm. Admittedly, these take on a more separate look than they do in the VM, but they are still growing from the same base.
  
  
  
  These suckers are often truncated, giving rise to what we see in the VM. There are a number of reasons why one would do this: to harvest leaves, to prepare the plant for winter.. (this is of course only necessary in certain areas). When fresh shoots emerge from these stumps, the behavior is again like in the VM drawing:
  
  
  
  About the fruit, I agree about the tuft: this can only be made by someone who inspected a growing banana plant (or copied from such an image). However, it is not true that the weight of the fruit always bends the stalk. Keep in mind that there are many banana species. Some smaller species, like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., have their fruit on upright stalks. (Also keep in mind that the modern varieties have been selectively bred for larger (and thus heavier) fruit).
  
  The main point against banana would be the round shape of the bottom left leaf. Bananas generally have elongated leaves, but leaves on younger plants tend to have a rounder appearance.
  
     
  
  And the other leaves share more properties with banana. They droop, like bed sheets hanging over a line to dry, and they show deep cuts and a variety of colors.
  
  
  
  

• RE: f13r - banana?

  -JKP- > 13-01-2018, 04:26 PM

  (13-01-2018, 05:33 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP,
  looking around for Petasites I noticed that someone had proposed this identification in 2012. Thought you'd like to know!
  I hadn't come across this blog before: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Unfortunately the author doesn't go into much detail about the ID, but still thought I'd mention it here.
  
  Now what would be really nice would be to be able to compare this with a medieval drawing of Petasites.

  
  
  Thanks for the heads-up. No, I didn't know.
  
  All my plant IDs were done in 2008 (I started studying the VMS plant drawings in 2007 but I didn't attempt any plant IDs until I had studied how they were drawn for a few months) and I had only seen Sherwood's IDs at the time, but since I was trying to solve the manuscript (not trying to help other people solve it ) I didn't publish any of my plant IDs until 2013. And then a few days later I put many of them back in draft mode because once again I thought I was giving too much away by posting all of them. I still haven't found time to re-publish them because I was also studying the text (too many irons in the fire, too little time).
  
  
  Since 2008, I think there have only been one or two IDs I might change my mind about. My ideas about the others have remained the same (which surprises me a little, because I'm completely open to other ideas, but whenever I re-visit them, I can't see any reason to change them).

• RE: f13r - banana?

  -JKP- > 13-01-2018, 05:06 PM

  It's true that Musa velutina, which is native to Southeast Asia, has an upright stalk, but the flowers look like lily flowers, and the bananas don't look like the VMS drawing in shape or color, and typically the flowers and bananas are under the leaves (and the leaves are not round, they are elliptical, even whent he plant is young).
  
  There's one computer-generated image of the plant on Google images that shows the stalk above the leaves, but this is not typical for the plant.
  
  The flowers are white, the unripe bananas are pink, and the ripe ones are yellow (it's known as pink banana plant).
  
     
  Photo Credits: asacomm on bananas.org; JiuLing Zhang, AliExpress; myjunglegarden.com
  
  
  If we use Musa velutina as an example, then the VMS plant would have to be a composite rather than a specific banana species and I am always wary of wading into "composite plant" territory because most of the naturalistic plants in the VMS do appear to be specific plants and if they are approached as composites, then they can no longer be identified, they could be combinations of anything (it's a bit like a one-way cipher).
  
  
  Also, just looking at these three photos, do you think the VMS illustrator would choose to illustrate this plant as it is in the drawing?
  
  
  I'm not categorically saying it can't be banana, your point about the color of the leaves is a good one, banana leaves do have distinctive color changes near the end of the growing season, but taking all factors into consideration, the drawing fits Petasites in terms of which parts of the plant are important for its use and its identification. I honestly don't think the VMS illustrator would choose to draw a banana plant this way. It's not a good fit for the upright-stalk species and parts of it are in the wrong direction for the drooping species. It also doesn't feel like the kind of drawing that results from trying to interpret a verbal description (verbal descriptions of banana plants usually emphasize the bananas, as in the one that likened them to cucumbers).

• RE: f13r - banana?

  Koen G > 14-01-2018, 12:42 AM

  There are hundreds of different banana species and various ones have fruits in upright stalks. A few more such species can be seen among the images on this site, for example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  It's true that the fruit will generally be lower than what is shown in the VM. I'm also not saying that it absolutely must be one of the upright species. The flower is missing too, so if it's banana, the fruit is not the most accurately rendered part.
  
  If this drawing were to accompany a text about how to cultivate bananas, rather than how to identify them in the wild, it would make sense to me. This drawing would be useful if I wanted to teach someone banana care and propagation.
  
  So many VM plant discussions would be easier if scale were indicated 

• RE: f13r - banana?

  -JKP- > 14-01-2018, 03:54 AM

  (14-01-2018, 12:42 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
  
  So many VM plant discussions would be easier if scale were indicated 

  
  
  I completely agree with this.
  
  It would also help a great deal in interpreting the "map". The causeways between circles might be 20 yards or 500 miles.
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