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• Water, earth and air

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 19-01-2026, 05:03 PM

  As (the) one who sees the wording of VMS' f68 "earth" as equivalents of Asia, Africa, Europe (which can be found in a overwhelming number of TO signets and thereby have the highest possibility, but of course no certainty), 
  I like to emphasize that VMS rosette here shares to same way of viewing the world like "Oresme" ("" because I have in mind that the drawings are not Oresmes own work).
  
  But I have no segemented "T-O" in my memory were "Air, Land, Sea" ever came as written words, and not like drawn terrain, water waves and something air-like (ribbons, stars, pea-soup, whatever). Such versions may exist.
  So both roundels may have the inversion of "world" in common, but not surely the intention of segments.
  
  On the other hand, there are many cloudband-using variants of showing the world:
  
  (14th Ct.)
  
  
  (ca. 1227-1234)
  
  
  When using "Asia, Africa, Europe" fillings, it was quite usual to write much more into the Asia segment, just 1 example here:
  
  
  
  Such texts could have been explanations, as well as simply naming several asian locations, much more than african or european.
  
  So I cannot carry on the idea of "Oresme" influence into VMS f68, even though Elli Velinska made a great find with that.
  It may prove an common european understanding of the world here, at best.

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Koen G > 19-01-2026, 05:52 PM

  Context is important. The "soup" is above and below because this image shows one of the Days of Creation (the 6th, with the land animals). The biblical narrative has God "separating the waters above from those below", so the image shows waters above and below.
  
  JKP includes it in his blog post, with other examples: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Jorge_Stolfi > 19-01-2026, 06:27 PM

  (19-01-2026, 05:03 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.VMS' f68 "earth"

  Which page are you referring to? Perhaps f67v2, the small circle in the SW corner?

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Rafal > 19-01-2026, 08:00 PM

  Quote:JKP includes it in his blog post, with other examples: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  Would you agree people that these cloudbands/wolkenbands like the one in Nicole Oresme are generally a French thing despite the name? 
  
  Most of examples included seem to come from French manuscripts

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Jorge_Stolfi > 19-01-2026, 08:36 PM

  WARNING - AI GENERATED STUFF
  
  This is what Google AI Mode says about the regional use of those wolkenbands:

  • Germany & Bohemia: Wolkenbands are characteristic of the International Gothic style, which flourished in major artistic centers like Prague and Nuremberg. They appear frequently in Weltchronik (world history) manuscripts and large liturgical Bibles from this region (e.g., those completed around 1415).
    
  • England: English artists adopted the "nebuly" (cloudy) line patterns that form the basis for wolkenbands in works such as Gower's Vox Clamantis and manuscripts by Christine de Pizan.
    
  • Flanders/Netherlands: Burgundian and Flemish illuminators used these bands to frame heavenly visions, often rendering them with the thick, knotty edges and 3D appearance you described.
    

  
  I hope those references are not hallucinations. Goggle AI Mode seems to be more sober than other lalamos...
  
  (But then it spontaneously added a couple of parags about the use of wolkenbands on the Voynich Mauscript.  Argh. I can't way for this riddle to be solved so that we can start to clean up all the pollution it leaked all over the internet...)
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Rafal > 19-01-2026, 09:15 PM

  I wouldn't believe AI at all about these cloud bands in manuscripts. It has no knowledge about them at all.
  
  Here is a very similar cloud band to Nicole Oresme. Also French.
  By the way it is not Holy Mary, it's the goddess Venus   

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Koen G > 19-01-2026, 09:19 PM

  You can't ask LLMs about the term "Wolkenband" or "Nebuly line". Over half of its training data is Voynich people using it a lot. 
  
  About the regional variation in the style, I'm not sure. The VM employs various types, which may derive from different sources.

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 19-01-2026, 09:48 PM

  (19-01-2026, 06:27 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (19-01-2026, 05:03 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.VMS' f68 "earth"

  Which page are you referring to? Perhaps f67v2, the small circle in the SW corner?

  
  No, I really do mean f 68v left, this one here:
  
  
  
  I think the most here agree meanwhile that the center TO circle is a representation of "earth" or "world".
  
  
  But this here, f 67v:
  
  
  
  may also be a TO vignette, maybe with a known preference for green water, the rest is blue air and red soil or so.

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Jorge_Stolfi > 20-01-2026, 12:00 AM

  (19-01-2026, 09:48 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No, I really do mean f 68v left, this one here:

  
  Ah thanks, sorry for the confusion.  
  
  

  Quote:I think the most here agree meanwhile that the center TO circle is a representation of "earth" or "world".

  
  But we just concluded that it was copied from the version that appears in that Oresme book, where its meaning is somewhat different than that of the "standard" T-O map.  More like the Cosmos during the Creation?  No?  
  
  

  Quote:But this here, f 67v: may also be a TO vignette, maybe with a known preference for green water, the rest is blue air and red soil or so.

  
  The colors are probably not original. If we ignore them, it does not seem possible to tell whether the circle was originally divided by a T.   I bet it was undivided, like the other three.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: Water, earth and air

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 20-01-2026, 12:33 AM

  (20-01-2026, 12:00 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
  But we just concluded that it was copied from the version that appears in that Oresme book, where its meaning is somewhat different than that of the "standard" T-O map.  More like the Cosmos during the Creation?  No?  

  
  Really, did we come to this conclusion? I don‘t think so.
  - there are no spiral arms in Oresme version
  - there is not any wording in Oresme
  - there is a strict count and segment of stars (most 5, once 6) in VMS, but random starring in Oresme
  - only the seam, and the blueish background of stars, are in both drawings.
  - Oresme seems to show not any „creation dynamics“ for me. VMS is spiralling, yes, but I am lacking the fantasy to see somehow galaxy/cosmos here. The 8 motive is often related to winds or directions.
  
  Not much for a „copy“, maybe inspired, but seam and blue sky are really not unique to Oresme or even french authors.
  I would remain here again that there is the „world“ in center, but not agree to Air-Earth-Sea content.
  
  

  Quote:The colors are probably not original. If we ignore them, it does not seem possible to tell whether the circle was originally divided by a T.   I bet it was undivided, like the other three.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  
  Well, all the colours in VMS seem somehow „not original“, due to a bit poor (hastily) workmanship applied some later. But the colours are those as in many other drawings, standard blue, green and red.
  
  The circles of all corners at f 67 are drawn very weak, nearly not visible even without colours. Impossible to say if there was a segmentation underneath, or not.
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