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Three-section orbs
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RE: Three-section orbs
Barbrey > 05-01-2025, 07:53 PM
(05-01-2025, 07:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(04-01-2025, 10:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's undeniably true that the rosettes page, Q13 and some other folios are connected, and studying this topic may lead to useful insights. But let's not forget that large majority of folios in this manuscript bear no visual resemblance to the rosettes family at all. Plants, Zodiac and Q20 are of a different breed, despite the occasional overlap.
Here's a diagram I had in mind for a while now. It shows the similarity between illustrations from the various sections. If a cell is light green, they have something specific in common, and this is written in bold.
This connects Herbal, pharma, rosettes and astro/cosmo on the one hand, and bio and zodiac on the other.
Yellow cells share the same type of stars, which are not such a strong link as they are quite basic shapes.
Pink cells have individual stylistic commonalities or details. 'Circles' just means circular diagrams.
The two larger groups are most linked through the zodiac and astro/cosmo illustrations.
The individual letters refer to:
L = both have abundant labels
C = both have circular texts.
All in all, it seems quite coherent and connected. Specifically, the rosettes folio has something to share with all other sections.
Edit: of course, the C in the Bio/Zodiac box does not belong there...
Great chart! I think I could add quite a few things if you’re open for suggestions? I’m not sure how specific you’d want it though. For instance, rosettes with bio share canopies and finials, and rosettes with cosmo and bio share nebuly/wulkenbands - I think those would be okay - but how about things like the mermaid fish in the bio being the same fish as the zodiac Pisces fish, or her emerging out of the fish in the same way the Pisces inner circle nymphs emerge out of barrels? Would these be concrete enough for your chart?
Hmm, thinking it over, I have many, many examples, both concrete and stylistic, but they might make your chart more complex than wanted. Is its purpose to show the interrelatedness of the sections, or are you collecting examples? If the first, you likely don’t need much more than you have? -
RE: Three-section orbs
ReneZ > 06-01-2025, 09:48 AM
I think it could be interesting to have a more complete overview of similarities or (better) common details.
There will inevitably some difference of opinion of what is common and relevant and what is not.
For me, over the years, I have become very careful in trying to draw conclusions from the drawings.... -
RE: Three-section orbs
Barbrey > 06-01-2025, 10:24 AM
(06-01-2025, 09:48 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it could be interesting to have a more complete overview of similarities or (better) common details.
There will inevitably some difference of opinion of what is common and relevant and what is not.
For me, over the years, I have become very careful in trying to draw conclusions from the drawings....
It sounds like a project. Best of luck. -
RE: Three-section orbs
Mark Knowles > 06-01-2025, 10:45 AM
(05-01-2025, 07:23 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yellow cells share the same type of stars, which are not such a strong link as they are quite basic shapes.
I think it is a mistake to label the * as stars. There are clearly stars drawn on some pages, but these are not the same as the * . The word "star" suggests that they represent a celestial body i.e. a "sun" from outside the solar system. The term * or asterisk doesn't give an interpretation to them. On the Rosettes folio the * can be found in every rosette except the top left and centre right, do they represent stars in all those locations? And if you think they do, then how to you justify that interpretation in each of those instances?
Also, what precisely do mean by the word "bubble"? -
RE: Three-section orbs
ReneZ > 06-01-2025, 11:13 AM
(06-01-2025, 10:45 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is a mistake to label the * as stars.
When you first wrote that a couple of days ago, I had another look at some of the cases.
Clearly, the Voynich MS shows two types of star symbols.
The first is just an asterisk.
The second is an outline shape with a varying numer of arms, at least 6 to 9. Of this second type, variations exist, in that they may have a tail, they may have a small circle in the centre and they may have been partly painted.
In other manuscripts of the time, both types of these symbols are used to indicate stars.
What I (briefly) checked is that, in the Voynich MS, the asterisk type appears mostly inside circular diagrams. The outline shapes mostly appear in astronomical diagrams, the zodiac and the stars section.
I am open to the possibility that the asterisk type is just ornamental and does not refer to stars in the sky, but it remains speculation, and in the case of the centre of the rosettes, it really seems to denote a piece of the sky. However, speculation indeed.
With respect to my diagram, I specifically meant the 'outline shape' stars only. Their role in the diagram is as an item of illustration, independent of what it may represent. Because we don't know anyway.
(06-01-2025, 10:24 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It sounds like a project. Best of luck.
Not for me, at the time, or in the near future. I am just doing too many things already. -
RE: Three-section orbs
Mark Knowles > 06-01-2025, 11:40 AM
(06-01-2025, 11:13 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(06-01-2025, 10:45 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is a mistake to label the * as stars.
In other manuscripts of the time, both types of these symbols are used to indicate stars.
I am open to the possibility that the asterisk type is just ornamental and does not refer to stars in the sky, but it remains speculation, and in the case of the centre of the rosettes, it really seems to denote a piece of the sky. However, speculation indeed.
It seems possible to me that the asterisks represent stars. I wouldn't want to totally discount that possibility. Although, it does seem to me that if they represent stars on one part of the page it is reasonable to assume that they represent stars everywhere on the page. Given my interpretation of the rosettes page I can't give much meaning to the asterisks representing stars form of representation everywhere on the page, however I am sure some people would say that is because my interpretation of the rosettes page is wrong. So, I don't really see why one should conclude that the asterisks represent stars in the central rosette, I suppose it is because of the blue background, however I don't see that as a good reason to assume we have a representation of stars in the sky. -
RE: Three-section orbs
R. Sale > 06-01-2025, 08:07 PM
Take a look at these illustrations from the historical record.
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Stars are only a part of the story of a greater historical trend in artistic replication. It might be called "The History of the Background". A trend from gold foil, to patterned and diapered backgrounds, to more naturalistic representations, <and this is where the stars come in>, and on to realism.
Stars are part of the transition from pattern to naturalism. They have an aura of naturalism but sometimes they just fill in the background.
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There is good provenance on both illustrations.
The vast majority of stars here are asterisk-type stars. Three or four short lines of gold paint cross at a common median point. The other type of star is polygonal. The rays consist of two lines and the star has an interior area. These are the stars we see with the VMs nymphs. Polygonal stars are also found in the VMs cosmic diagram. This differs from BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334, which both use the traditional asterisk star patterns.
It's another instance where the VMs demonstrates visual diversity yet retains structural identity. A starfield is still a field of stars, even if the appearance and the pattern of the stars has changed. The starfield is a part of the structure of the Parisian, three-part cosmos. Each VMs part has been given a twist.
Seeing that the historical examples are compatible with the VMs C-14 dates, there seems reason to suspect that the VMs artist could have used asterisk stars as filler. -
RE: Three-section orbs
Linda > 07-01-2025, 06:29 AM
Does this count as a three section orb? I haven't seen it mentioned here yet.
![[Image: image.jpg?ref=f67v1_2&q=f67v1_2-32-860-250-250]](https://www.voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?ref=f67v1_2&q=f67v1_2-32-860-250-250)
My interpretation would be south up Isadore style TO with Asia cut in two, but what appears to be Asia south is more like southeast, and therefore explains why no connection is made between Africa and Asia.
So even though it is an Isadore type, it is more advanced because of the making into four parts. Perhaps an attempt to show a migration pattern that might have resulted in the diversity of mankind?