- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Three-section orbs
- Three-section orbs
-
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
nablator > 02-01-2025, 11:02 AM
(02-01-2025, 09:47 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the first example, is Gower's bow drawn on purpose like a rainbow? Otherwise the coloring and shading on this one item would be more awkward than the rest.
Rainbow bow pun?
The evolution of illustrations is interesting. A different tripartite globe in this manuscript (early 15th c.?) with air/earth/water vertically separated:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
What is the earliest inverted T-O globe illustration?
This one is dated 14th century:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Sorry, this discussion is off-topic and should be moved to: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Barbrey > 03-01-2025, 01:32 AM
Interesting. Has anyone come up with a good reason for the curves/spirals on the VM version? I’ve wondered if they have something simple like motion behind them, because 4 curved spokes intersect with the earth, and 4 to the heavens. Oresme’s BNF Fr 565 text talks about his unique idea for the time that the earth turns on its axis as opposed to just the heavens turning. Perhaps the VMS author was making a point not just about Aristotlean ideas but putting an Oresmean “spin” on his diagram. Just a guess on my part, but would be interested in this idea and others about this detail. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
R. Sale > 03-01-2025, 02:15 AM
The best structural equivalent for the outer part of the VMs cosmos, in my opinion, is the 'Eight Phases of the Moon' diagram by Shirakatsi.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
While it may seem unlikely, at first, the Genoese were in the Black Sea a century before the VMs C-14 dates, and the Venetians, even the Burgundians made it in. As the Byzantine empire weakened, diplomatic efforts and refugee movements increased. After 1453 Trebizond held on till 1461. Plenty of time for people and books to make the journey. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
ReneZ > 03-01-2025, 04:00 AM
(03-01-2025, 01:32 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interesting. Has anyone come up with a good reason for the curves/spirals on the VM version? I’ve wondered if they have something simple like motion behind them, because 4 curved spokes intersect with the earth, and 4 to the heavens. Oresme’s BNF Fr 565 text talks about his unique idea for the time that the earth turns on its axis as opposed to just the heavens turning. Perhaps the VMS author was making a point not just about Aristotlean ideas but putting an Oresmean “spin” on his diagram. Just a guess on my part, but would be interested in this idea and others about this detail.
For me that is the key question and I have no good ideas.
The resemblance with the Armenian MS (Schoenberg LJS 443) may be coincidental. The latter has several spirals with different numbers of arms and a preference for them to curl in the opposite direction.
This also has all spokes extend from the same level.
Furthermore, the way in which the spirals in the Voynich MS connect to the nebuly line is intriguing, if it is intentional.
The top one is clearly an extension of one of the bulbs, but for the others this is not the case.
I like your suggestion that it may refer to question of the rotation of the Earth vs rotation of everything outside.
This is something that Aristotle addresses, coming to the conclusion that the Earth cannot be rotating.
In that case, the Voynich illustration seems to suggest that they both rotate.
This is a new idea as far as I am aware, and I already like it. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Barbrey > 03-01-2025, 06:57 AM
Thanks René. I also wonder if in the case of the bows/arrows and that particular earth illustrated above if there is not a connection also with Oresme and his argument about rotation. He said all motion was relative and an arrow shot from a bow on a rotating earth would have the same effect if the earth were stationary. Maybe the Oresme illustration, the VMS illustration, the bow and arrow illustrations- all with similar earth diagrams - were part of a continuing motif to do with the earth’s rotation. Still just guessing - dating might be off, and I’m aware of John Gower’s poem stating the bowman shoots at the unjust. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
ReneZ > 03-01-2025, 08:07 AM
One thing I've long wondered about is a possible relationship between the Voynich 'cosmos' illustration and the rosettes folio.
In the cosmos, the Earth is in the centre, and the sky outside, as one would expect it to be.
In the rosettes it is the opposite. The sky with stars is in the centre (carried by containers or towers) while the Earth is outside in the far upper right corner.
In the Cosmos, there are spirals coming in from eight directions. That they come in is suggested by the direction of the writing.
In the rosettes, there are eight circles surrounding the centre, all (apparently) pointing to it.
Alternatively, the upper right circle could have this role all by itself.
The sky with the stars in the centre, the Earth on the outside, and one spiral path.
I do not see the cosmos illustration (f83v3) as something that stands by itself. -
RE: Three-section orbs
Koen G > 03-01-2025, 10:08 AM
The Gower image must be a pastiche of the kind of image R.Sale posted here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A single man standing outside of creation, interacting with it. The separation of "elements" in a T-O diagram recalls the biblical creation narrative. The idea may be that "Moral Gower" as he was nicknamed by his contemporaries, aims his critiques at all sinners of God's creation. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Mark Knowles > 03-01-2025, 02:37 PM
(03-01-2025, 08:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the rosettes it is the opposite. The sky with stars is in the centre (carried by containers or towers) while the Earth is outside in the far upper right corner.
The idea that the * represent stars on the rosettes folio is common. However the * appear in different parts of the page such as the bottom left and bottom right rosette as well as in the top centre, bottom centre and centre left rosettes. Do they really represent stars in all locations where the appear? If the top right rosette represents earth then why are there stars on earth? If the * don't represent stars in these other parts of the page, why assume that they represent stars in the central rosette? And so why assume we have the sky with stars in the centre? I am inclined to the view that the * don't really represent anything on the rosettes folio and are just an artistic detail with no precise meaning or interpretation. -
RE: New video: "Is the Voynich Manuscript fake?"
Linda > 03-01-2025, 07:01 PM
(03-01-2025, 08:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing I've long wondered about is a possible relationship between the Voynich 'cosmos' illustration and the rosettes folio.
In the cosmos, the Earth is in the centre, and the sky outside, as one would expect it to be.
In the rosettes it is the opposite. The sky with stars is in the centre (carried by containers or towers) while the Earth is outside in the far upper right corner.
In the Cosmos, there are spirals coming in from eight directions. That they come in is suggested by the direction of the writing.
In the rosettes, there are eight circles surrounding the centre, all (apparently) pointing to it.
Alternatively, the upper right circle could have this role all by itself.
The sky with the stars in the centre, the Earth on the outside, and one spiral path.
I do not see the cosmos illustration (f83v3) as something that stands by itself.
I don't see the TO Earth as being outside of the rosettes, but rather informing them, indicating we are starting off from the middle of what is either the Europe section or the habitable section, depending on whether it is Isadore's or Oresme's TO, which works out perfectly since I think that rosette has connotations of being both a section of Europe and for standing in as a representation of the greater ecumene, both of which inform the rest of the rosettes. In both cases I think the starry spiral thing is indicative of a mountain. Asterisks = height? (I need to check on this more... yes that generally works out, in my view).
I think the middle rosette is a world civilization idea, all the pieces inform it, both culturally, and scientifically. As we compare things like the timing of eclipses, or of noon and such, we learn more about where we are in relation to each other and to the stars, and thereby gain information about distances and time. As we gain access to information from other places, we inform ourselves of new ways of thinking and develop better understanding.
I do believe both pages show the earth and the firmament. In the first case, the definition of Earth is the ball we live on, in the second, it is the terrain we live on. In the cosmos case, the firmament is the the heavens or the sky, especially when regarded as a tangible thing, (such as how it is drawn, and the mechanics of what is turning), in the rosettes, the other definition, a sphere or world viewed as a collection of people. Outside view vs inside view, I guess that is the relation. -
RE: Three-section orbs
R. Sale > 03-01-2025, 10:53 PM
The various illustrations of tripartite spheres show different levels of complexity. In many religious representations, the different areas are blank. In Gower and similar, the areas of the globe depict the elements. And in BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334, the elementary globe is the center of a cosmic diagram.
From the perspective of Earth, the cosmic boundary represents the limits of knowledge. Yet the VMs has a circle and curved spokes beyond the cosmic boundary.
If something is supposed to be moving, what is it that moves? If the Earth and the whole cosmos rotate like a disk, then from the perspective of Earth, the apparent net motion is zero. Otherwise, in the wheel and hub model, the Earth is stationary.