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[split] The Strange Thing on 116v

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• [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  PeteClifford > 01-01-2026, 05:03 PM

  A couple of observations on this topic, if that's OK?
  
  1. What the drawing immediately reminds me of is an alembic still, such as this one, perhaps with a set of bellows at the base:
  
  
  
  A still could perhaps suggest a link to alchemy or the distillation of medicines and other products from herbs? Does anyone know when the alembic came into use in Europe?
  
  2. The suggestion that this was a depiction of the intestines of a goat struck me as bizarre, until I remembered that the words in the marginalia just to the right of the image possibly/probably read "pox leber". So, maybe not so outlandish a suggestion?

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  bi3mw > 01-01-2026, 06:21 PM

  (01-01-2026, 05:03 PM)PeteClifford Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anyone know when the alembic came into use in Europe?

  
  As far as I know, Taddeo Alderotti was the first person to describe an alembic in Europe. He lived from 1205/1223 to 1295/1303. In 1264, Alderotti distilled wine into brandy in Bologna. It can therefore be assumed that the alembic was invented around this time. It is, of course, possible that someone had already worked with it earlier, but there is no direct evidence of this.

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  Jorge_Stolfi > 01-01-2026, 07:55 PM

  (01-01-2026, 06:21 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I know, Taddeo Alderotti was the first person to describe an alembic in Europe. He lived from 1205/1223 to 1295/1303. In 1264, Alderotti distilled wine into brandy in Bologna. It can therefore be assumed that the alembic was invented around this time. It is, of course, possible that someone had already worked with it earlier, but there is no direct evidence of this.

  
  The invention of the alembic has often been attributed to the Baghdad Caliphate alchemist Jabir Hayyam around 900 CE, but presumably because it became widely known in Europe from books attributed to Jabir ("Geber") that were translated to Latin first in Italy in the 1200s.  And also because Jabir used the alembic to make sulfuric, hydrochloric, and nitric acids, and thus aqua regia, which dissolves gold -- which made it look like one could turn other metals into gold by alchemical operations.
  
  But in fact the thing is much older.  From Wikipedia: "Alembic drawings appear in works of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (3rd century C.E.), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (c. 300 C.E.), and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (c. 373 – c. 414 C.E.). There were alembics with two (dibikos) and three (tribikos) receivers.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. According to Zosimos of Panopolis, the alembic was invented by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."
  
  So the thing must have been known at least in the Eastern Roman Empire since the first centuries CE.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  bi3mw > 01-01-2026, 08:05 PM

  (01-01-2026, 07:55 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The invention of the alembic has often been attributed to the Baghdad Caliphate alchemist Jabir Hayyam around 900 CE, but presumably because it became widely known in Europe from books attributed to Jabir ("Geber") that were translated to Latin first in Italy in the 1200s.  And also because Jabir used the alembic to make sulfuric, hydrochloric, and nitric acids, and thus aqua regia, which dissolves gold -- which made it look like one could turn other metals into gold by alchemical operations.
  
  But in fact the thing is much older.  From Wikipedia: "Alembic drawings appear in works of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (3rd century C.E.), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (c. 300 C.E.), and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (c. 373 – c. 414 C.E.). There were alembics with two (dibikos) and three (tribikos) receivers.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. According to Zosimos of Panopolis, the alembic was invented by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."
  
  So the thing must have been known at least in the Eastern Roman Empire since the first centuries CE.
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  
  Yes, that's correct, but I think the questioner is referring to medieval Europe in his question. In that case, the mid-13th century is a realistic date for the introduction of the alembic.

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  vosreth > 01-01-2026, 08:18 PM

  Hello dear friends,
  
  I found an interesting passage from Hunain's Ten Treatises of the Eye (from 9th century) p. 121 [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]
  
  Treatment for night-blindness (following Galen, ibid, l, IV, c. 8 (ed. Kühn, vol. XII p. 709-710) :
  Bleeding at the forearm, purgation of the belly by means of medicine and clyster. Then the head must be cleared by gargling and sneezing and the veins in the inner corners of the eye must be bled, and he (the patient) must drink before a meal (water with) dry hyssop or rue. It (the eye) must be anointed with alum, rock-salt and the juice which flows from the goat's liver when it is roasted, and he (the patient) must admit to his eyes the steam rising from it during the roasting and then eat (the liver).
  
  I am not entirely sure how a 15th century person would have collected these drops from a liver that's being roasted, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. features also a round shape with dots above it. The round shape might be the drops forming a pool, or then it might be the eye where the drops are being applied directly. Curiously, looking for oror sheey leads to f76v, where something like oror sheey can be found in the beginning of the line (as it appears also on f116v). This page features a nymph, holding a similarly shaped object, accompanied by similar dots and a circular shape. Might she be holding some kind of roasted goat organ that's dripping?
  
     
  
  I can not find any mentions of goat milk unfortunately. However, at the end of the linked book, there's an excellent table with the english, greek and arabic names of different words related to treating the eye, and this list features goat's fat, goat's horn, goat's liver and goat's gall. Interestingly, Hunain also refers to the "tunics of the eye" with their greek names, for example arakhnoeidês khitôn for the arachnoïd, which presumably is where the droplets should be administered. 
  
  Curiously, the word on the next line below oror sheey on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like 8ox, but that might be a coincidence.

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  nablator > 03-01-2026, 01:51 PM

  Hello vosreth,
  
  Welcome to the forum.
  
  

  (01-01-2026, 08:18 PM)vosreth Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I found an interesting passage from Hunain's Ten Treatises of the Eye (from 9th century) p. 121 [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]

  
  Interesting indeed!
  
  The Greek recipe and its Latin translation in note 3: Galen, ed. Kühn Vol. XII p. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
  

  Quote:[Ad glaucos oculos et lusciosos.] Solani succus instillatus glaucos oculos denigrat. In lusciosis vero hepar hircinum assato, ipsumque inter assandum distillantem cruorem coadunato, atque hoc quidem ipsos illinito, ipsum vero hepar edendum praebeto. Auxiliatur et columbinas sanguis illitus et fel caprae, aut hepar caprinum coquito, eosque obvelatos in ollam intendere jubeto, quo elatum inde vaporem oculis susceptent. Ipsum vero hepar assidue edendum dato, ex hoc enim cito auxilium sentient, aut ♃ elaterii obolum, seminis portulacae drach. j, cum melle inunge, aut stercus asini recens exuccato ac illinito. Vescatur aeger beta, vulturis jecore assato, ejusque felle illinatur.

  
  Google's translation of the passage about a goat's liver:
  

  Quote:(...) roast a goat's liver, and collect the dripping blood while roasting, and this itself is anointed, and the liver itself is given to be eaten. Doves' blood anointed with the gall of a goat is also helpful, or boiled goat's liver, and ordered to be placed in a pot, covered, so that the eyes may receive the vapor rising from it.

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  vosreth > 08-01-2026, 05:33 AM

  Dear friends,
  
  I have traversed to the depths of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (unfortunately not open access) and there's a particular passage regarding night blindness treatment that grabbed my attention:
  The fat and liver of a goat with a quantity of clarified butter skimmed out of the milk of a she-goat should be mixed with pippali (Piper longum) and sodium chloride and a chemical preparation made by boiling these ingredients with the expressed juice of amalaka (Embelica officinalis). The preparation thus obtained should be mixed with honey and carefully kept in a closed vessel made of khadira (catechu) wood. The use of this chemically prepared compound as an anjana is highly recommended for the treatment of night blindness.
  
  I should note, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was an ancient indian physician and surgeon born c. mid 1st millennium BCE and wrote the foundational text of Ayurveda. I know this sounds a bit far-fetched, but the recipe has some surprising parallels to what has been hypothesized regarding the reading of f116v, and raises the question whether this sort of information could have reached Europe before the 15th century. 
  
  The evolution of using liver as a remedy to cure night blindness goes something like this:
  - (This has been reviewed quite nicely in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (again behind paywall, my apologies))
  - (Here's another review, this one open access You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
  - Egyptian papyrus Kahun 1 (1825 BC) - a gynecological treatise, mentions "instructions for a woman, cannot see, to eat raw liver of an ass"
  - Egyptian papyrus Ebers (1500 BC) - recommended cure was roasted ox liver, pressed, applied (topical to the eye)
  - Assyrian medical texts (700 BC) - describes night blindness, remedy was application of ass's liver to the eyes (not the liver itself, but extracted oil)
  - Hippocrates (460 - 379 BC) - first reference to nyctalopia (the disease only) in the sixth book of Epidemics, describing what is known as the "epidemic of Perinthus"
  - Hippocrates (in the book On Vision) - Nyctalope's medicatement: drink elaterion (=a potent purgative) ... and eat one or two livers of a calf, as large as possible.
  - Diouscourides Pedanius (1st century AD) - ...against nyctalopia is useful the smearing [on the eyes] of blood from turtledove, woodpigeon, dove, grouse or wild goat... Also smearing of the juices that run while the goat's liver is grilled and consumption of the liver itself...
  - Galen (129 - 216 AD) - time-honored regimen of grilled goat's liver, the smearing of eyes with "ichor", that is, the juices of the grilled meat, and the exposure of the diseased eyes to the steam of the grill.
  - Alexander of Tralles (525 - 605 AD) - proposes the classic therapy of goat's liver.
  - Chinese Sun-szu-mo (7th century AD) - describes a cure by administration of pig's liver in his 1000 Golden Remedies.
  - Ali Abu ibn Sina (known in the west as Avicenna, 980 - 1037 AD) - notes in his book Canon of Medicine the remedy as "juice of goat's liver on which several cuts with a knife are made" and that is "smeared on the eyes together with Indian salt and long pepper. Sometimes they add these spices while it is being grilled and the sick person should lean over the vapor and then eat the grilled liver." (ref. Abu Ali ibn Sina. Canon of Medicine. Book III, part 3, art.4§3. Tashkent, Uzbekistan: Fanlar Nasrioti Academy 1958;280.)
  - It is unclear to me where the trail leads after this, it seems almost as if the further we go back in time, the better the recipe fits to goat liver and goat milk, and eventually vitamin A is discovered.
  
  I was surprised by Avicenna's statement, because he prescribed specifically Indian salt and long pepper that were mentioned by Susruta, suggesting it might have been possible that the ayurvedic version of the recipe was also known in Europe. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was an ethnic Persian, and perhaps in a unique position to consolidate medical knowledge scattered across the known world. You can double-check the transcription of the latin translation of his Canon of Medicine You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for example, the relevant section is De nictilopa. Capitulum .V. and De cura. Capitulum .VI. Unfortunately, no mention of goat's milk as far as my understanding, despite other similar ingredients.
  
  You may wonder how does this relate to the strange thing on f116v? 
  Well, here we have some clues regarding goat liver, but the clear connection to an abomasum is still missing. 
  This is puzzling, because the eye remedy trail is quite convincing, but so is the reading of "Lab". Of course it's perfectly possible there's no connection and that's something to note too.
  
  Perhaps one possibility worth mentioning that has not been considered and is related to eye remedies is that the illustration would be some sort of smoke delivery apparatus to the eyes during liver roasting. Something similar might be seen in p. 32 of this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but to me it's not that convincing. I would be curious to know whether that image is actually related to eye treatments/night blindness, but that sort of handwriting is impossible for me to decipher. If someone else wants to try, the opthalmology section starts at p. 25. Some alembics and other instruments can be seen in that Arzneibuch too, for example on p. 137, 138, 139. 
  
     
  
  p.s. It could be mentioned that according to that paper about Susrutian ocular therapies, eye lotions in these therapies are called aschyotana, which is another word that sounds a bit like anchiton and certainly could have been spelled in whatever way.
  
  p.p.s. There's one more thing to point out, and it's that the arabic version by Hunain doesn't mention he-goat, which made me think arabic texts were leading me to the wrong direction. On the other hand, the Indian recipe mentions specifically she-goat for the milk (theoretically, that is the only option if you want milk). I am not sure if these are just quirks of how the languages work or actual differences in the recipes.
  
  p.p.p.s. There's another thought that occurred to me, and that is that town of Kitzbühel where poxleber was mentioned is known as the City of Chamois (a type of wild small goat-antelope species). Google translate tells me that chamois milk in German should be called Gamsmilch, and this would explain I guess the macron (?) over the a, but would be quite a fantastical ingredient. I guess the abomasum and the inner anatomy of a chamois should be quite similar to that of a goat.
  
  Cheers

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  Koen G > 08-01-2026, 10:21 AM

  Thank you for this interesting overview! As you know, I've been exploring such topics myself recently, and here are some things I might add.
  
  About liver:
  When goat liver occurs in the context of medieval recipes, it is usually just as a food. You need to put something on the table; if you have a goat liver, this is how you can prepare it. Medicinally, Marco encountered goat liver in the Dioscorides Longobardus. The liver of a female goat is used against night blindness, but that of a male goat is used to cure poison bites. (A "pock" is a male animal, mostly but not always of the goat).
  
  

  Quote:On hyrcine (he-goat) liver. It counters venomous bites when dried, ground, and drunk with wine.

  
  In short, finding "pox leber" as a piece of meat for cooking is pretty easy, but it is very rare in medicinal contexts and charms.
  
  About goat milk:
  Goat milk is easier to digest than cow's milk, and was believed to be similar to breast milk. Therefore, it was often recommended in medical contexts, for patients who were weak, recovering... The message tends to be: the milk of a goat is better than that of a cow for weakened patients. The recommendation of goat milk usually feels relatively reasonable, as compared to for example the whole liver smoke thing. Even when goat milk occurs in regular cookbooks, the goal is similar, e.g. "if you want to make a fortifying drink". 
  
  About the label:
  I wouldn't get hung up on the "lab" reading. The central vowel is very unclear. We can see its top, which could be that of a, e or even o. I lean towards "e", since you can see the top right stroke kind of turn inwards again, which it wouldn't do for "a". "Leb" (with some abbreviation mark) is attested in various manuscripts for "leber", while I don't think the same can be said for "lab". But it could even say "lob" for all I know.

• RE: [split] The Strange Thing on 116v

  Bluetoes101 > 09-01-2026, 07:20 PM

  For what it is worth, my current thought is that its goat organs. Like this (hidden for the squeamish!). 
  I don't really see the alembic/oven comparison personally.
  
  

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

     

  I believe this image is of goat lungs + liver?
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