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"De Balneis" - a recap
- "De Balneis" - a recap
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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
Diane > 23-10-2017, 08:37 AM
I think it reasonable to say that the Yale librarians have a long and happy history of interaction with Rene Zandbergen, beginning (?) with Rene's being associated with an Austrian television company which in making a documentary also paid for certain tests to be done.
The degree to which they have relied upon Rene's ideas and advice since then has been evident and is surely a compliment to Rene, who was long believed the 'only sane boy in the village' beyond the boundaries of the online community.
But this means that their 'mentioning' the same matter which Rene had been supporting and promoting for many years is no independent judgement, but a reflection of the Beinecke librarians' willingness to accept Rene's views on this and a number of other matters, not excluding the library's decision to alter its pagination in a way which confused the matter in earlier papers, but with which Rene found acceptable. He said, in fact, that "we" were happy with it.
Since no-one since .. whenever... Torasella made that comment appears to have troubled to investigate the validity of the supposed similarity, nor to produce anything like a solidly-based argument, what we have is nothing more than efforts to justify a momentary impression after the fact, with research aimed not at all at critically evaluating the likelihood of an actual connection, but merely creating an impression of validity, chiefly by that same cross-referencing of secondary and tertiary authors which in the last century kept the 'Roger wrote it' story the only story for almost a century. We see the same reliance on 'important names' rather than evidence and the same habit of deliberately ignoring all alternatives - in connection with the 'sunflower' story.
In short, this notion owes its survival - or so it seems from all the usual sources - entirely to the fact that Rene is a long-surviving Voynichero, and one who found this vague notion congenial, urging it thereafter in the context of his 'central European' hypothesis, scarcely conceived of before he espoused it.
I believe that Torasella owes a debt of gratitude to Rene for the constancy and persistence with which he has championed an idea that - had anyone attempted to present it as a formal argument -must have failed at the first post. -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
-JKP- > 23-10-2017, 08:42 AM
You want a "formal argument" that some of the bathing scenes in the VMS resemble some of the bathing scenes in the De Balneis? -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
VViews > 23-10-2017, 09:40 AM
A quote from Adam McLean's blog, April 12th 2008, (emphasis mine):
" It seems to me so obvious that the creator of the Voynich manuscript had seen a manuscript depicting the Baths at Pozzuoli, either this one or some other (there are a number which have survived), however, the Voynich speculators are not interested in something so prosaic and obvious. The text of the Voynich cannot be read, but the images can be contextualised and thus the subject matter of the manuscript can be revealed. Art and images so draw on earlier examples, that one can see how images emerge from an earlier context. Just as Bosch drew on the depictions of zitirons and other strange beasts in Flemish manuscripts available in his time, so the author of the Voynich drew on depictions in earlier manuscripts of the baths at Pozzuoli when drawing his figures."
Links to Adam McLean's research on the connection between the two:
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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
-JKP- > 23-10-2017, 09:49 AM
It helps to actually read De Balneis.
Some of the scenes in the VMS do appear to illustrate similar concepts, but sometimes from a different angle from other illustrated descriptions.
So assuming the VMS illustrator was familiar with one or more of these natural spas (they are extremely numerous, much more than I realized before I started studying them), either they've been drawn from personal experience, or from an exemplar that no longer exists, or it was derived from a textual exampler with no images, or... the illustrator deliberately chose to draw it from a different angle, perhaps to accommodate the text.
It also helps to read the in-depth research done by Fikret Yegül before dismissing the similarities:
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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
MarcoP > 30-10-2017, 04:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a 1490 ca copy of the De Balneis (Naples).
While it is too late to be a direct source for the Voynich ms, the layout of some illustrations is a particularly good match for Quire 13. See for instance the pose of the rightmost couples at the top. Also, the illustration at f.4r (bottom) clearly represents a pool exclusively populated by women: in other copies I have seen, the sex of the bathers is typically less clear. -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
Koen G > 30-10-2017, 04:52 PM
Wow! Great find, Marco. It would be interesting to know which manuscript the 1490 copy derives from. One would almost expect it to be even closer to the VM central pool pages. -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
-JKP- > 30-10-2017, 05:03 PM
Notice the "eyeball" breasts on some of the women lower-left. Some of the VMS breasts have been drawn that way, but selectively so... most are not. -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
MarcoP > 30-10-2017, 06:26 PM
(30-10-2017, 04:52 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wow! Great find, Marco. It would be interesting to know which manuscript the 1490 copy derives from. One would almost expect it to be even closer to the VM central pool pages.
I have collected illustrations of the “Sulfatara” bath from different manuscripts. You can find the links to the various manuscripts on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Angelica ms.1474 1250 ca (full scans not available)
BAV Ross.379 1350 ca
BNF Fr.1313 1390 ca (a French translation)
Bodmer 135 1360 ca
Morgan G.74 1400 ca
Valencia BH Ms. 0838 1490 ca
The Valencia ms is clearly closely related to Bodmer 135.
Large image:
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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
Koen G > 30-10-2017, 06:45 PM
Thanks! It's very interesting to see the variations. Tge Bodmer is indeed very similar.
Is the same true for the illustration with the arcs? It's still a few days before I have a computer again and these things are hard to check from my phone -
RE: "De Balneis" - a recap
MarcoP > 30-10-2017, 06:57 PM
(30-10-2017, 06:45 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks! It's very interesting to see the variations. Tge Bodmer is indeed very similar.
Is the same true for the illustration with the arcs? It's still a few days before I have a computer again and these things are hard to check from my phone
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it is!
PS: or maybe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., not sure.