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Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
- Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
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Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
R. Sale > 07-02-2016, 10:04 PM
The heraldic pattern called gurges is a charge that generally has a spiral design. It is the Latin word for a whirlpool and is typically represented in alternating blue and white, but other colors can be used. There is also an second version of this pattern consisting of multiple concentric circles. Apparently the concentric version either preceded or co-existed with the spiral version very early on, and was then mostly supplanted by the spiral version.
Examples:
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The VMs Zodiac tub patterns also have an example of a concentric, bulls-eye design. My attempted connections to the jason davies site have repeatedly timed out. (Anyone having similar problems?) I think it's on the outer left of Pisces, but you'll find it if you care to. It was one of the more obvious unresolved issues, but now it's been identified. Further evidence that heraldry exists in the VMs. And a further demonstration that heraldry is a valid investigative premise for the identification of tub patterns in the VMs Zodiac, Pisces and Aries pages. The investigation of identity then proceeds through the optical illusion of White Aries and on to the Genoese Gambit. -
RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
MarcoP > 08-02-2016, 12:37 PM
Hello R.Sale,
I guess you are referring to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In Italian, the pattern is known as Armille. The two examples are of the Albizi (or Albizzi) family of Florence.
Left You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Archivio di Stato, Firenze, XVIII Century
Right, 1492 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Bagno di Romagna
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RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
R. Sale > 08-02-2016, 06:21 PM
Bravo MarcoP,
That's a great match. Spot on!, as they say. And to be honest, this one that you've demonstrated is all yours, The VMs pattern I'm recalling has more circles and no real outer boundary. So we can call this one Armille and still find Gurges as well - I hope.
The general pattern is often more important than the actual number of lines. The gurges pattern is not a specific number of lines. This applies even more so to the striped patterns like paly, bendy and barry. The descriptive counting of parts (always paired) in these patterns was instituted rather late, in the 1800s, as I recall.
I have proposed that heraldry is a useful investigative premise. And you have added to the evidence, which is much appreciated. I have also suggested that by this accumulation of evidence heraldry begins to function as a means of communication. After all, heraldry was intended as a means of communication and became a traditional field of medieval knowledge. Why not let it function as a means of communication without written language? What it needs is validation and that is provided by historical grounding in the VMs White Aries.
The accumulation of evidence found with the heraldic premise is far more than accidental occurrence would provide. Complexity indicates intentional construction. The author's unique use of heraldry, specifically the papelonny patterns, is an indicator of the level of that complexity. What other alternative could there be? -
RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
R. Sale > 09-02-2016, 09:16 PM
Not having much luck in opening this investigation to any new possibilities, rather the opposite. One of the few Google images mentioned Scottish heraldry, and the original Gorges family was not Scottish. So this would seem to be a second possible interpretation for a historical connection.
As it turns out here, in ancient Scottish heraldry:
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The reference is to the same Gorges family as above. There is no other historical example of gurges so far.
As to the differences between Gurges and Armille, they are obvious. Gurges is a whirlpool, that would typically in its early versions probably cover the entire shield - whether spiral or concentric. Armille is described as being based on arm rings or bracelets, and limited to two or three in a concentric arrangement. The use of little dashed line patterns outside the circles of the Dark Aries pattern is a clear sign that this pattern goes no further. Now to count the number of circles.
The unfinished appearance of the illustration over all introduces a significant degree of ambiguity here. A little bit of black coloration applied in the right places to the Dark Aries image would make a much closer match for the Albizi insignia. Is the illustration unfinished or is ambiguity the intended product? Just look at White Aries and the radial illusion.
The definition I found for the term 'armille' comes from a text on Florentine heraldry. And the term is not found in a more general reference like Parker's. So the armille terminology, pattern and Albizi example appear to have exclusively Florentine connections so far, but any additional, relevant info is rather sparse. -
RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
R. Sale > 14-02-2016, 08:34 PM
MarcoP,
Thanks for your continued efforts in this line of investigation, but I'd say you hit it out of the park on the first try and the albarelli example is an interesting, but distant second place. Nobody has a monopoly on circular patterns.
When I suggested to another investigator that the tub patterns on VMs Pisces, primarily the ones with with stripes, might correspond with the heraldic patterns of paly, bendy, barry and chevronny, I was definitively assured that these patterns were derived from earlier Iberian albarelli. Despite my requests, however, no examples were provided.
My own investigations did reveal certain elements fairly common in the decoration of Hispano-Islamic albarelli with general similarities to the striped patterns found in certain examples of the Pisces tub patterns. And an early Italian example also has a very basic striped pattern consisting of several horizontal lines that might pass for a representation of a barry. So I decided to look more closely.
The pattern on the albarelli is almost always based on a pair of horizontal lines that encircle the object. The space between the two lines is crossed (or nearly crossed) by a repeating sequence of short lines that also go all the way around. These crossing lines are always set on the diagonal. And in those few examples where a more detailed painting technique has been used, these diagonal crossing lines will have a small counter-directional curve at either end making a narrow, elongated 'S' shape.
In the VMs, the crossing lines are always perpendicular to the length of the stripe, not diagonal. If the VMs examples are representations of hatching lines, as Stolfi described them, then hatching lines may serve two purposes. They are either used artistically to create shadings of light and dark. Or they are used in heraldry as a tincture designation system (with a potentially problematic time line).
Do the albarelli designs represent either of these two uses for hatching lines? It would appear to me that they do not. The intent of the albarelli designs would seem to be the creation of a spiral pattern. It gives the impression of spiral, wound cordage that might have been found in basketry.
If the albarelli designs a examples of hatching lines, then a third category (spiral) needs to be add to the definition. Or if the VMs illustrations were intended to show spiraling stripes in the tub patterns, then diagonal crossing lines could have been used. Another example were pottery would seem to come up short and where heraldry provides a better explanation for what is seen in the VMs Zodiac illustrations.
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RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
MarcoP > 15-02-2016, 10:22 AM
(14-02-2016, 08:34 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nobody has a monopoly on circular patterns.
Hello R. Sale, that was exactly the point I was trying to make!
In absence of visual support, I find it hard to follow you argument about different hatching lines in ceramics and heraldry. I am not very familiar with any of the two fields.
About heraldry, I think Rene has a good point here:
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In any collection of heraldic patterns I would expect the occasional lion, eagle of other animal to turn up.
Rampant lions, hounds courant, displayed eagles etc. are not exactly a monopoly of heraldry, but their absence in a collection of devices is extremely uncommon, from what I have seen. -
RE: Gurges - a new VMs heraldic ID
R. Sale > 15-02-2016, 11:30 PM
Quite simply, a little something has been overlooked. A contemporary examination of heraldry as a whole clearly offers up a wide variety of images and complex designs. That's for sure. A great deal of this is something that has occurred well after the VMs parchment dates.
The heraldic interpretations themselves date from before 1250 CE to 1300 CE or so. Historical even from the VMs perspective. If an examination is made of the earliest available documents showing the rolls of armorial insignia, it will be seen that these examples are by and large still in a phase of using geometric designs, while eagles, lions and fish and what-have-you, all combined are, in some instances, still in the minority. Early heraldry in the period of the Fieschi popes is very strongly geometric. The armorial designs of this time are based on the heraldic ordinaries and other traditional patterns. They use various heraldic lines of division and certain basic charges often geometric as well, like labels, mullets and roundels etc. Lions and eagles are occasionally found, but most of that representational stuff is far in the future.
The VMs author has the option to be selective. The need to record an all inclusive document is not present. The more obvious the pattern, the more difficult it is to disguise. And disguise is present in the radial illusion, for starters.