Davidsch > 21-04-2017, 02:30 PM
Quote:Torsten:
For letters you are arguing against something never said. There was simply no thesis that letters are not predictable.
Your statement about the word order is obviously wrong. Sequences of repeated words using the same word order all the times are missing for the VMS. Since they are missing there is no way to argue that the order of words is predictable.
Torsten > 21-04-2017, 03:20 PM
DonaldFisk > 22-04-2017, 01:58 AM
(21-04-2017, 11:10 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your test about word order (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) only demonstrates that a word doesn't depend on the previous word. Unfortunately this observation alone is not enough to allow the conclusion "that words are output randomly". It is also possible that a word depends on his position within a line, that a word depends on a word in the previous line or that a part of a word depends on a part of the previous word. For the VMS it is possible to give examples for each of them: Words ending with [m] are most likely found as last word of a line. There is an increased chance that you can find the same word in the next line in the same position (see the word [daiin] on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Last but not least there is also an increased chance that a word ending with [y] is followed by a word starting with [q].I proposed an additional mechanism for deciding the beginning of paragraphs, and the same could apply for the ends of lines.
Davidsch > 22-04-2017, 01:17 PM
Torsten > 22-04-2017, 07:14 PM
(22-04-2017, 01:58 AM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I proposed an additional mechanism for deciding the beginning of paragraphs, and the same could apply for the ends of lines.
I'd be very wary of making observations based on small details. I'd also point out that words in the text are not just random, they are very random (variance = mean squared), so higher-than-chance occurrences of *some things* are very likely.
Re daiin, very similar patterns appear in my 21st Century Voynich Manuscript, and that is random (but with a variance lower than the real manuscript).
DonaldFisk > 22-04-2017, 10:31 PM
(22-04-2017, 07:14 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Words in the VMS are not related with the previous words. But this did not mean that words are random or as you say very random. That I give examples for some observations did not mean that my statements are based on some details:
90 % of the paragraphs start with a gallow glyph (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). There are also glyphs typical for line initial position (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
600 out of 1100 words ending with [m] are used as last word of a line (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the observation that words in the VMS co-occur with similar ones.
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the [font=Times]statistically-significant effect of word-final glyphs on the initial symbol of a following word.[/font]
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some observations about the line as a functional unit.
The words in the VMS are not ordered as expected for a natural language but they are still ordered in some way.
Emma May Smith > 22-04-2017, 11:06 PM
(22-04-2017, 10:31 PM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, when a word starting with a gallow glyph is generated, a new paragraph is sometimes started. When the last word generated ended in m, a new line is started, etc. That doesn't necessarily signify meaning.
DonaldFisk > 23-04-2017, 02:07 AM
(22-04-2017, 11:06 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is well-accepted that the presence of words beginning with a gallows or ending with [m] is caused by line position, rather than their line position being caused by their presence.
Torsten > 23-04-2017, 10:14 AM
(22-04-2017, 10:31 PM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, when a word starting with a gallow glyph is generated, a new paragraph is sometimes started. When the last word generated ended in m, a new line is started, etc. That doesn't necessarily signify meaning.
I found the same relationships between page types, and between certain words, found previously by Montemurro. It's because different parts of the manuscript are generated slightly differently. -edy words occur so frequently in the Currier B (red) herbal pages that they appear to be related.
I'm still unconvinced. Anyone's free to attempt to reproduce my results, or find a way to infer meaning consistent with them.
However, things still aren't quite correct. I neglected the labels, as that involves a fair bit of preprocessing. It's known they have different properties to the other text. I also need to get in place a new (probably Poisson) random function and a means of choosing the next glyph which has the property that variance = mean^2.
Emma May Smith > 23-04-2017, 11:10 AM
(23-04-2017, 02:07 AM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(22-04-2017, 11:06 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is well-accepted that the presence of words beginning with a gallows or ending with [m] is caused by line position, rather than their line position being caused by their presence.
Has anyone explained this, or provided any evidence? Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.
This would be extremely easy to fake, whether or not the text has meaning. Just ensure you start a new paragraph when you're about to write a gallows character.