R. Sale > 09-03-2017, 08:43 PM
Greetings,
Sam G. said, "I think you forgot papelonny."
Thanks, Sam. for demonstrating the point I was trying to make. Actually papelonny and plumetty are traditional heraldic furs, along with the variations of ermine and vair - but apparently you missed that detail. [traditional = well prior to VMs parchment dates]
Davidsch,
Thanks for the explanation. However, at this point, I am only interested in the detail that can be seen in the illustration, the similarities between VMs You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. and the interior of the Oresme depiction, the use of the nebuly line in the VMs representation, and the similarities between the Oresme cloud band design and the fancy, scallop-shell circle found in the VMs central rosette, just outside the circular band of text.
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The comparison of VMs You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. and the Oresme cosmos is the work of Ellie Velinska, as I have cited many times. And the cloud band pattern in the VMs central rosette was found by Don Hoffmann. Both VMs elements should be compared with the Oresme original in regard to their general structure. Ms Velinska has established the similarities of the interior. Mr Hoffmann found an interesting VMs example, but did not discuss, to my knowledge, anything in particular about the interior structure of this pattern or its comparison with the Oresme illustration. That is the matter under discussion. And the comparison seems to show strong similarity, in that both are similar examples where a scallop-shell type of pattern is used to to create a cloud band. And secondly, once getting past the multitude of illustrations from de Pizan, this sort of scallop-shell pattern (pure and simple) is rather difficult to find in the full set of the medieval cloud band patterns.
The investigation of patterns which compose medieval depictions know as cloud bands (formerly wolkenbands) shows that each artist's representation tends to be highly individualistic - as has been shown by various illustrations in a prior discussion. There are, among this variety, a few where the pattern is based on a scallop-shell motif. Among these are Oresme and the VMs. When the details match, do you think that they match by chance? How do you know if the details match, if you don't know what the details are? It's not a matter of absolute visual identity. It's a matter of representations that are based on the same structure as shown by the similarity of design details.
Would you know in advance the difference between a '56 Chev and a '57 Chev or the difference between the Beetles and the Rolling Stones? Some will and some will not. Now think about this type of distinction, this discriminatory knowledge of detail being moved back five or six centuries. The people living at the time of VMs creation are the ones best acquainted with their relevant cultural details. They are not simply aware of those details, but they are also able to make a more sophisticated use of those facts in a form similar to of heraldic canting - functionally similar to mnemonic devices.
My point is that certain educated persons at the time of the VMs creation would have been much more familiar with the details of science, history, heraldry, etc. of their own culture than we are. They would know the details in advance, and looking at the VMs, they would recognize those details when they saw them. We don't always know that these details even exist. And, consequently, (in some cases) we have to work from VMs illustrations to try to find historical correspondence. But we have the difficulty of selecting a VMs representation and then finding a good historical match to that particular representation. That is why it has taken so long to find things like the Oresme cosmos or the papelonny patterns even though they are clearly represented in the VMs. Additionally, the VMs author makes a subtle and unconventional use of such information and we fail to understand or even identify these examples because the necessary details are essentially lost as they are no longer relevant factors in modern culture.
More importantly, when we look back at the content and the nature of this VMs construction, we need to ask whether this is enough to indicate purpose.