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RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 06:23 AM
(11-01-2017, 03:48 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton,
...
Remember, in Baresch's time, German botanists and herbalists were the most eminent in Europe - meaning they had studied the range of older 'Dioscoridan' works as well as the contemporary science - and they couldn't identify any, apparently.
Do you have evidence for that Diane? That they tried to ID the plants, or that they were unable to ID the plants?
The impression I got, from the tiny bit of correspondence that is available, is that they were primarily interested in the text. That appears to be one of the main reasons they put it into Kircher's hands, who had a reputation for languages and "hieroglyphics" (which was a more general term for foreign scripts in those days, not necessarily just Egyptian) rather than giving it to, or even having mentioned, any of the pre-eminent botanists (some of whom were in their circle of friends). -
RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 06:28 AM
(11-01-2017, 03:48 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Another unthinking assumption is that any pictures of plants must constitute a herbal. For all anyone knows, the pictures may be patterns for ... a craftsman's collection of patterns to be used in metalwork, tapestry, embroidery, silk fabric, mosaic, china-painting or woodwork.
...
This statement relates directly to one of my areas of expertise. After studying the VMS for nine years, with most of that time devoted to the plants and the text, I can say with a high degree of confidence that this is not a set of patterns for craftsmen. -
RE: f5r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 08:02 AM
Quote:In fact style of drawing is absolutely critical because it directs attention to the mind-set informing the image, and thus assists correct attribution. Style is how we distinguish whether the picture of (say) a woman and child is meant for the Madonna, and further whether it is a product of Italy, France, Spain, Russia, Egypt or China.
Since many also assume, without pausing to consider whether the assumption is anachronistic, that any divergence in style between Latin art and the imagery in Beinecke MS 408 may be dismissed as due to some imaginary figure called "the artist", we have the compounding of these two notions at work before the person even begins to posit a plant id.
Another unthinking assumption is that any pictures of plants must constitute a herbal. For all anyone knows, the pictures may be patterns for ... a craftsman's collection of patterns to be used in metalwork, tapestry, embroidery, silk fabric, mosaic, china-painting or woodwork.
So what if the 'herbal' idea is another assumption not just unexamined but plain wrong?
In fact, based on the assumptions expressed in this thread, I got a novel idea that can be named "heads and tails" paradigm. With this paradigm:
a) the look of the Voynich plants is explained by that the primary purpose is mnemonics;
b) the roots of the Voynich plants are used as mnemonics for one language/usage (say, Latin/"scientific") and the tops of the plants are used as mnemonics for another language/usage (say, German/"folklore")
For You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. this would be the (provisional) Lysimachia and Schirmkraut, respectively.
With this concept, there may be no plant names mentioned in the botanical folios at all (so my PPN idea would need to be discarded), because they would actually be not needed there anymore.
This may position the botanical section completely out-of-style and make the search for style parallels vain, because the appearance would not be following style, but be the direct consequence of the ingenious approach of the mastermind behind those folios. And, of course, this would make the botanical section not a traditional herbal - because it conceals plant names instead of revealing them.
Of course this assumption is only provisional at the moment and needs to be checked against more botanical folios.
Quote:FYI, there was also a Greek physician called Lysimachos.
Wikipedia ( : sigh : ) says it's after Alexander's warlord, not the Greek physician.
UPD: I did some search in the internet and it looks like Plinius Maior stated that it was Lysimachus (the warlord) who first described Lysimachia (hence the name). The exact sort of it that was supposed to be described by Lysimachus is unknown, but at least the name is older than XV c. Very good.
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RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 08:11 AM
(11-01-2017, 08:02 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
In fact, based on the assumptions expressed in this thread, I got a novel idea that can be named "heads and tails" paradigm. With this paradigm:
a) the look of the Voynich plants is explained by that the primary purpose is mnemonics;
b) the roots of the Voynich plants are used as mnemonics for one language/usage (say, Latin/"scientific") and the tops of the plants are used as mnemonics for another language/usage (say, German/"folklore")
For You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. this would be the (provisional) Lysimachia and Schirmkraut, respectively.
With this concept, there may be no plant names mentioned in the botanical folios at all (so my PPN idea would need to be discarded), because they would actually be not needed there anymore.
This may position the botanical section completely out-of-style and make the search for style parallels vain, because the appearance would not be following style, but be the direct consequence of the ingenious approach of the mastermind behind those folios. And, of course, this would make the botanical section not a traditional herbal - because it conceals plant names instead of revealing them.
Of course this assumption is only provisional at the moment and needs to be checked against more botanical folios.
Anton, that's a good thought.
I have a slightly different idea, but... it's along the lines of there maybe not being traditional (or Latin) plant names...
If this is Trientalis (I'm not saying it is, just that it's the closest one in botanical terms)... then the common name of the plant in many areas is star flower (in a number of languages).
Suppose the text uses "star" by reference to some of the cosmological sections? It doesn't have to actually be the word "star", it could be any combination of glyphs to mean star and thus wouldn't necessarily match glyph-by-glyph to other words on the same page.
Anton, as a point of interest... since you mention a possible hybrid function... both Paris quadrifolia and Trientalis europaea live in the same general regions and grow in the same general habitat (although Trientalis can be found a little farther north). Both have that very distinctive "berry on a stick" with the thin calyx that curls under. Paris was used for coughs, eye inflammation and wound healing, Trientalis was used for wound healing.
I don't see evidence in most of the naturalistic plants that more than one plant has been combined, but there are a few where I think it may have happened, and if ever there were motivation to combine them, these two temperate zone forest plants, Paris and Trientalis, which are used for similar purposes, and have similar shapes except for the leaves, would qualify. -
RE: f5r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 08:21 AM
Quote:Suppose the text uses "star" by reference to some of the cosmological sections? It doesn't have to actually be the word "star", it could be any combination of glyphs to mean star and thus wouldn't necessarily match glyph-by-glyph to other words on the same page.
Well, that would be fine for one folio, but that would not scale for the whole botanical section, I think. There are 100+ Voynich plants there, and there are simply not as many thematical sections in the VMS to be cross-referenced by plant names. If there is some inner principle, then it would be applied as a system. -
RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 08:31 AM
(11-01-2017, 08:21 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Suppose the text uses "star" by reference to some of the cosmological sections? It doesn't have to actually be the word "star", it could be any combination of glyphs to mean star and thus wouldn't necessarily match glyph-by-glyph to other words on the same page.
Well, that would be fine for one folio, but that would not scale for the whole botanical section, I think. There are 100+ Voynich plants there, and there are simply not as many thematical sections in the VMS to be cross-referenced by plant names. If there is some inner principle, then it would be applied as a system.
There might only be one or two plants in the whole collection that have the word "star" in their name and thus might not be sufficient to determine whether they map to the star pages in some way.
I'll confess something... I'm not entirely guessing about this... I've been looking for these kinds of correspondences for a while. FYI, quite a few of the old plant names are similar to the names of planets or stars, and there are quite a few relationships in the text between the plants and the zodiac-symbol section and cosmology pages. Whether they are names of the plants, or whether they indicate which planet influences that particular plant, I haven't been able to fully figure out yet. -
RE: f5r
Koen G > 11-01-2017, 09:07 AM
My five cents, in case anyone cares.
All plants I have found so far in the small plants section are from places east of Europe, generally "around India", many actually from India. They are valuable spices but also practical plants like for making ropes or timber.
This is in line with Diane's earlier findings about the large plants.
The mnemonics in the small plants are meant to help Greek speakers remember the indigenous name of the plant. A plant which in its home region is called something that by coincidence sounds like the Greek for "monkey" is drawn like a monkey. See my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the explanation. Not all plants have been drawn like this - it is evident that more time has been spent on some folios than on others. The thickness of the mnemonic layer corresponds well to the complexity of the accompanying vessels.
I've spent way less time on the large plants, but I think in general Diane is right about the function of their mnemonics. They remind the viewer of what the plant can be used for. Especially those that are in the roots. I have my own thoughts about the relatively few mnemonics that remain in the rest of the plants - see my avatar
So I think Anton is right that at least in some of the large plants, two entirely separate mnemonics are expressed.
So looking at the roots of this plant (don't know if Diane has done this one), I don't see a claw but rather insect stings or even a scorpion's tail. The dots appear also as bites or a rash. So might the plant have been used to relieve skin sores or even as an antidote?
I actually like the picture Linda posted, so let's have a look at the wiki:
Quote:Paris polyphylla has been used by local inhabitants of Nepal traditionally since ancient times. They use it primarily for fevers and headaches, burns, wounds, and many livestock disease mainly to neutralize poisons.
Not too bad. The region of Nepal is actually not as problematic as it looks, since they were known to participate in the trade. Others can likely explain this much better than I. Either way, it also appears to be native to the Indian subcontinent, which is even less problematic.
Edit: just to be clear, this is just a quick stab at it, not something I'd set in stone. But it works rather well at first sight. -
RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 09:26 AM
Just something to keep in mind (I spent a fair bit of time investigating medieval east/west trade before I knew about the Voynich manuscript)...
Most of the early trade, as far as I've discovered so far, was in items that were hard to get in the west. Certainly they would purchase things available in the west if they could get them cheaper in the east (e.g., some kinds of ceramics or fabrics), but plants can be found by walking in the woods and both Trientalis europaea and Paris quadrifolia have a wide distribution (and both are used for wound healing).
Things like cardamom, Indian spikenard, and many of the eastern nuts would be imported, but it seems unnecessary to climb far up into the mountains of Tibet to find the same plant that was available in people's back woods. -
RE: f5r
Koen G > 11-01-2017, 09:41 AM
(11-01-2017, 09:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Things like cardamom, Indian spikenard, and many of the eastern nuts would be imported, but it seems unnecessary to climb far up into the mountains of Tibet to find the same plant that was available in people's back woods.
Yes, that is of course true. One of the ID's in the small plants section I feel most confident about is saffron.
The idea would be though, that this is more of a general guidebook for managing a fleet or a ship. Say you are in this or that exotic place and you need to instantly repair your ship's ropes, what do you get? Or some of the crew are full of sores or insect bites near Nepal, what remedy is available? -
RE: f5r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 10:43 AM
(11-01-2017, 09:41 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-01-2017, 09:26 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Things like cardamom, Indian spikenard, and many of the eastern nuts would be imported, but it seems unnecessary to climb far up into the mountains of Tibet to find the same plant that was available in people's back woods.
Yes, that is of course true. One of the ID's in the small plants section I feel most confident about is saffron.
The idea would be though, that this is more of a general guidebook for managing a fleet or a ship. Say you are in this or that exotic place and you need to instantly repair your ship's ropes, what do you get? Or some of the crew are full of sores or insect bites near Nepal, what remedy is available?
That's certainly one way of looking at it, if a crew were off in an exotic locale, they would want to know what remedies to were available, particularly remedies for ailments like "quartain fever".
I really hate to debate the identifcation of saffron in the small-plants section (and I won't do it on this thread), but even though I think you've presented a great argument for it, I'm not entirely certain that's what it is.