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• Discussion of the Konstellations

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Linda > 17-12-2016, 09:49 PM

  i do believe the ms is purposefully obfuscated, which leads me to believe that either important and/or unpopular information is encoded. sometimes i think it was meant to force us to look at everything in existence in order to find its meaning, only to find in the end that it says haha, made you look at it all, you're welcome.
  
  I have seen what appear to me to be glimpses of references to what could be called copy errors, and/or the idea that identical things can be presented very differently, leading to misunderstandings and tangents that have lost their tradition of origin. sometimes I think it is making fun of some of the representations that have evolved in cartography, and/or teaching that these things do not represent the things we may see in them today (or then). an example would be the mountains of the moon, which after awhile start looking like eyeballs on maps, and not realistic at all to the geography they represent.
  
  Hecataeus attempted only to include the stories he believed in, and did not include myths he thought were false. He arrived at this stance through learning over his lifetime that oral history cannot be trusted, such as when he told the Egyptians he can trace himself back to a god through something like 16 generations. Not believing that, they showed him statues representing the reigns of 345 generations of mortal men.
  
  I guess that's why I have trouble accepting that a lot of time would be spent on telling mythical stories in the ms, unless it is to correct the then-current understandings of the meaning behind them.
  
  could it be that the zodiac in the ms does not refer to the monthly zodiac we think of now at all, but has to do instead with the astrological ages and the Platonic Year?

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 17-12-2016, 10:03 PM

  Time for a new Konstellation. I wrote about this one in my paper and still stand behind that analysis, but I'll reproduce it here and add some new finds.
  
  There is a unique grouping of nymphs on f80v. One is lying down in the water, and two are standing close behind her, facing each other.
  Those accustomed to the constellations will know that there is a trio of constellations that is also always grouped in this way: Hydra, Corvus and Crater.
  Hydra is a (water)serpent, Corvus a bird (usually raven or crow) and Crater a cup. Ever since antiquity, they are pictured as the cup and the bird standing on the serpent's curvy body.
  
  I take the theme of f80v to be the annual flooding of the Nile, the reasons for which I explain elaborately in my paper. There are plenty of reasons to include Hydra in a Nile-based folio. This is the best one: "Theon said that the Egyptians considered [Hydra] the sky representative of the Nile, and gave it their name for that river." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  On the mythological narrative level, these three nymphs represent Artemis, on the right, who has just found out that one of her nymphs is pregnant: Callisto, on the left. The identity of the horizontal nymph depends on which version of the myth we read. In some accounts, Callisto has already given birth at this point, in which case this nymph would be playing the part of the newborn (I know, I know...). In Ovid's account Callisto hasn't given birth yet, but to increase the shame of the pregnancy reveal, it is stressed that other nymphs are bathing nearby, so this would actually be a bathing nymph!
  
  
  
  So we have someone looking angry at a pregnant woman, and someone lying down in the water. If you look at the left nymph's belly, her puffy cheeks and especially the way she holds her belly, I hope you won't find the pregnancy too far-fetched. This composition works well on the narrative level.
  
  So how does it refer to the constellations. Well, if the reader is somewhat familiar with the constellations already and know that this is the theme of the image, then the "two standing on one horizontal" composition is a dead giveaway. But there are other clues in the image. Ones I hadn't noticed before. But they jumped at me as soon as I knew what they represented.
  
  Unfortunately this part of the folio is very badly faded, but I wil try to get the most out of it by tweaking the contrast.
  
  Let's start with the angry Artemis. She has a mark on her eye which may remind one of the way the crow's eyes are sometimes drawn, but that is not the most telling part.
  
  Like I said when listing the constants: arms usually say something about the constellation level. In the case of this figure, her arms are bent back in a way that would dislocate one's shoulders. Obviously to, sorry Sam, evoke the shape of wings folded on the bird's back. Figures with their arms like this, represent winged beings. Voynich nymphs don't have wings, so they play it like this.
  
  Next, the serpent:
  
  See how her mouth is a reptilian split. Find another mouth like that in the manuscript and see how hard it is. Her eyes are special as well, but this is hard to see because of the fading.
  See how her arm is bent and she has no hand, to evoke the winding of the Serpent.
  
  Finally, our poor pregnant Callisto with the big belly.
  
  Crater is usually, in more authentic sources, drawn like a cup with two handles, like arms set in one's hips, and, well, a big belly...
  See how the nymph's arms are again without hands, making them look like handles attached to the body (imagine the cup turned sideways.
  And a final evocation, see how her hat resembles the (b)rim of a cup.
  
  I also said that green details point towards southern constellations. The water here cannot be green since it specifically refers to the Nile and rivers get blue water. But the green is present in their hair.
  
  That's really all I can do. I find myself explaining details of which I'm sure nobody (including myself) had noticed them before. The unexpected confirmations are too many to be coincidental.
  
  
  
  Edit: Linda: I just saw your post after I published mine. I also notice a lot of fine humor in these images. The subject matter is not taken extremely seriously, but still treated with knowledge. I'm not sure if it has to be seen as a parody - I don't think of it in that way. But what I do see is a combination of enough knowledge of the subject to be able to play around with it, yet enough distance from it to not see it as set in stone.

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 18-12-2016, 01:23 PM

  There's a line of figures on top of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which don't fit the scheme. I don't think they represent constellations, but they work well on the narrative level.
  It reads: 
  1) a messenger is sent to queen Procne
  2) and 3) the messenger appears before the queen and reveals the cloth spun by Philomela
  4) the queen and a group of friends rush towards the place where Philomela is imprisoned during the feast of Bacchus. 
  5) and 6) the queen and Philomela blend in with the people partying in the streets and make their way back to the palace unnoticed.
  
  
  
  Since these figures are placed on an ecliptic folio but are not constellations, since there are six of them and they follow a bendy, irregular path, I wondered if they could be the planets + sun. Planet iconography is a mess, though, and if this is an original representation based on a textual source, it may nog be of much help. Aratus is usually of some help, but about the planets he basically says: they are too random, I'm not going there. So I wondered if anyone here could provide some more insight.
  
  This is what I think to know:
  - likely read from right to left, as indicated
  - they are between Capricorn and Cancer, which makes sense since these are the most southern and northern point of the ecliptic, and hence the "boundaries" of the planets' path.
  - I'm not sure if they are in the order of their perceived circles (this is still pretty new to me)
  
  Now the figure I labelled (3) is easy - I can handle this. She is shown in a standard charioteer's pose, and her crown is somewhat similar to Sol's as well.
  
  
  Now the the other figures:
  
  1) I'm not sure what the arms mean here, they are half hidden. The hair seems to suggest female with her hair partially undone (??)
  2) Hair suggests male. The "cloak" might be important, as well as the color red.
  (3) would almost certainly be the Sun
  4) Hair suggests male. Arms are important - when a constellation has these arms it means "winged" or swift
  5) Hair is long and blue, may be male or female. Crown suggests kingship. When a constellation has arms like this, it means "large" (imagine a fisherman showing how big the fish was he caught)
  6) Hair suggests male. Arms seem very significant but I do not know this pose or its meaning.
  
  So any ideas?

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Davidsch > 19-12-2016, 01:30 AM

  Holding your arms at your back like that should have a symbolic meaning, that is not a drawing error or bad drawing in my opinion.
  
  May i ask: was there any focus on that already here or anywhere else?

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 19-12-2016, 08:32 AM

  Hi David
  
  Do you mean whether anyone has studied arm poses already? I believe VViews once made a study, also concluding that something special is going on and that it's not just coincidence.
  
  As far as I know the explanation I offer is the first one that seeks to assign meaning to the arm positions in a consistent, integrated way though.

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Davidsch > 19-12-2016, 02:21 PM

  yep. Holding your arms at your back in that pose could have a symbolic meaning on itself.

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 20-12-2016, 10:30 AM

  I've been looking some more into the order of the planets. If we ignore sun and moon, Plato had:
  Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Venus
  
  I have also found the Mercury, Venus order in Cicero, but other authors have them the other way around.
  Mars is always in the middle of these five.
  Most authors agree that Saturn is the furthest planet, but Hyginus has Saturn and Jupiter switched.
  
  The position of the sun is usually between Mars and Mercury/Venus. Because of their position, Ptolemy called Mercury and Venus the inferior (lower) planets. Note how, indeed, two figures are specifically placed lower than the others.
  
  
  
  The iconography for Sol is an obvious reference to someone standing on a chariot, Sol's quadriga.
  
  
  
  I'm not sure about the other figures yet. Planet iconography is not always very clear, especially if we assume this was based on older sources. I would be inclined to read the figure on the right as Venus and the one left of it as Mercurius (Hermes) wearing the messenger's cloak, which would imply that the illustration follows the Platonic order.
  
  If these are the planets, then the figure left of Sol is certainly Mars (Ares). One of his attributes was a warrior's cape, which may be what is portrayed by the nymph's arms.
  
  The next one is relatively easy. She represents a woman on the myth level, but a man (likely Jupiter/Zeus) on the constellation level. One might object that this figure is clearly and unambiguously a woman, but I disagree. It is intentionally androgynous. Look at the face, and specifically the chin/cheek region:
  
  
  
  Either that's a horrible disease, or... the Great Thunderer's beard.
  
  I have no idea about the last figure, who should the, be Saturn/Kronos or, small chance, Jupiter. If the system is consistent then the arms tell us something about the figure, which they seem to do, but I don't know how to interpret it. Any ideas?

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 22-12-2016, 09:37 PM

  Planets are not the most straightforward thing to interpret in the context of astronomy, so let's return to the constellations.
  
  
  
  There's a river on f80v. Not some vague green or blue pool or water running through tubes, no, a real river. That's an interesting starting point, because there is also a constellation that's a river: Eridanus. We know which constellations are close to Eridanus, so analyzing the figures adjacent to this river, we can see whether the constellations in Q13a are correctly clustered or not.
  
  In the image below, I marked the river in blue, and the three Konstellations on it in red, green and orange. A pair of figures on one base is always one constellation.
  
  
  
  As JKP once explained, it is likely that such unusual images are based on a textual description rather than immediately copied from standard imagery. So let's consult some texts. There is no doubt about where the River starts. For example, Eratosthenes writes: "The river has its source at the left foot of Orion." For once, things are easy! We can test a hypothesis. If this river is indeed the River constellation, then this figure must represent Orion:
  
  
  
  One problem with Orion is that he wasn't often pictured in antiquity, even though he was present in narratives since Homer's day. A rich mythology has evolved around the figure over many centuries. 
  
  Orion was a huge giant (able to cross oceans). Homer writes:  "Next I discerned huge Orion, driving wild beasts together over the field of asphodel, the very ones that he once had killed on lonely mountains, he grasped in his hands a mace of bronze, never to be broken." And Virgil: "As great Orion moves forward, cleaving his way, with his feet treading the floor of the deepest mid-ocean, his shoulders overtopping the waves;"
  
  The same characteristic returns in descriptions of the constellation itself. For example, Manilius writes that “Orion may be seen stretching his arms over a vast expanse of sky and rising to the stars with no less huge a stride.”
  
  Now, there is no denying that this nymph has a huge stride, and her arms are huge as well, much bigger than those of other nymphs. Seriously, look at those arms, she looks like some kind of ape. I just want you to appreciate how monstrously large this nymph is. These are the kinds of things you only notice once you know they are there. But now it's so obvious. Her he is next to the nymph directly above, without any resizing:
  
  
  
  That's right, a veritable Voynich Goliath, suitable do depict the mythological giant in the stars, with his huge stride and vast arms. And at his leg originates the River.
  I always say that the base of the figures relates to the constellation, and here it is no different. However, since Orion's iconography is variable, this is not easy. Initially I took it to be meant to bring to mind Orion's club. Now I believe it may represent a scabbard, another possible attribute of the giant. This would have as an additional advantage that it is attached to Orion's belt, an important section of the constellation. There is also something hidden under the blue paint which might relate to the scabbard, but I won't go there yet.
  
  Now let's follow this River and see where it takes us. Here it is, marked in blue, on the Farnese Atlas. Just like in the VM and the source texts, it starts at Orion's leg. Then it coils down towards the monster Cetus, disappearing behing it for a moment. Finally, it disappears in the South, after passing next to Lepus, the Hare.
  
  
  
  So the next Konstellation should evoke Cetus, the sea monster. How is that the case? Remember, base=constellation. Here the base is some weird green coiled thing, which trails down and has a split end. In other words, Cetus' tail:
  
  
  
  
  Pretty well done. That leaves Lepus, the Hare. This nymph has no base to give us a hint, but remember that the arms also tell us about the constellation. I'll just leave you with some Lepus images and hope you might see what I mean
  
  
  
  Wooh, this post took me a while. Hope it's not too complicated...

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  -JKP- > 23-12-2016, 12:07 AM

  A good read.
  
  It's hard to deny the giant nymph, split tail (and snarly look on the "Cetus" nymph), and resemblance to hare's ears, or to explain these features in other ways that are consistent with a common thread.
  
  
  If this pans out, and I think it might, it's brilliant deduction.
  
  
  I wonder... this is just a thought, since your proposed Cetus appears in conflict with the other nymph, could this be someone like Perseus who defeated Cetus by holding up Medusa's severed head and frightened the monster to death or turned it to stone? Could there be a myth combined with a Cetus constellation to cinch down the identification? Cetus is in the Perseus Group (along with Andromeda and Perseus) and the pulling of hair (or snake-like tendrils) in the image might be a reference to holding the severed Medusa head.

• RE: Discussion of the Konstellations

  Koen G > 23-12-2016, 10:26 AM

  (23-12-2016, 12:07 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A good read.
  
  It's hard to deny the giant nymph, split tail (and snarly look on the "Cetus" nymph), and resemblance to hare's ears, or to explain these features in other ways that are consistent with a common thread.
  
  
  If this pans out, and I think it might, it's brilliant deduction.
  
  
  I wonder... this is just a thought, since your proposed Cetus appears in conflict with the other nymph, could this be someone like Perseus who defeated Cetus by holding up Medusa's severed head and frightened the monster to death or turned it to stone? Could there be a myth combined with a Cetus constellation to cinch down the identification? Cetus is in the Perseus Group (along with Andromeda and Perseus) and the pulling of hair (or snake-like tendrils) in the image might be a reference to holding the severed Medusa head.

  
  Both nymphs are Cetus, since they stand on a single base. The viewer is supposed to know - I guess through the text - that it is especially the base and the arms of figures that point at the constellation, while the rest is not-always-related narrative frame.
  
  In my analysis of this entire folio, the narrative frame is the myth of Callisto being assaulted by Zeus. This Cetus scene is the exact moment of the attack. But there is no reason why there should or should not be hair pulling involved.
  
  So - yes, I think you are right that the image of Perseus and his Medusa head is alluded to here. I hadn't seen it yet that way, but these images are so incredibly intricate and densely layered. You will understand why I often praise the composition of specifically Q13a. It's really well done. And I think it is because they have managed to compress this much info into what essentially looks like a bunch of ugly, bathing nymphs, that it has managed to mislead people for so long.
  
  Edit: I see what you mean now seeing one nymph as the Cetus half and the other as a Perseus half and the head doubling as Medusa head, and I think you are right. this also explains the red spot on "Medusa's" neck, where it would have been severed. Layers, layers...
  
  Now there's more. This is a clear cluster: Eridanus, Cetus, Lepus, Orion. It's not accurate like on a celestial sphere, but the basic positions are there.
  With Lepus, the running figure bottom right on the folio, the image takes a different direction, crossing over the middle of the page towards bottom left.
  
  Let's hypothesize that the pool of water represents the Tropic of Capricorn. That is not a random guess: Lepus sits right on it, just like our nymph. So let's follow it in the right direction. There's one nymph in the middle which I haven't discussed yet here, let's leave that one for now (risking tl/dr). You can probably guess.
  
  But then we get to the trio I identified as the celestial trio of Hydra, Corvus and Crater. See this post a bit earlier in this thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  
  I pasted the relevant section of the Farnese Atlas beneath it, leaving only the constellations on the tropic of Capricorn. I did mirror the image, since celestial spheres are mirrored by convention, so you have to mirror them again to get the normal positions. The thing in between the Dog and Hydra is the top of Argo Navis, which belongs to the Antarctic Circle and can be ignored.
  
  That leaves three constellations in this section, from right to left: Hare, Dog, Hydra-Corvus-Crater.
  
  So... it works out rather well. Though it takes some time and experience with the constellations to adjust your eye to it - which is why I'm a bit afraid I may be speaking Chinese sometimes :/
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