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The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
- The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
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RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
Davidsch > 14-12-2016, 11:25 AM
(13-12-2016, 06:18 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(13-12-2016, 05:11 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nevertheless there are some good books, the book already referenced seems like a big book 480 pages, but in an hour or two you can read it all.
Which one do you mean? The 480 page document you link to is a 1908 translation of Aristotle's works, not a medieval version. The other two books you reference are not medieval either.
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding?
You said we should try to understand medieval viewpoints, so I thought you meant a summary or list of specifically medieval works that translate, discuss, or elaborate on Aristotle's writings, not Robert Fludd or Joseph Gabriel Frey.
Yes, that's the book, a 1908 translation of Aristotle's works.
Correct, but there are not many "readable" medieval books or transcriptions. What is wrong with reading a book of a prof. or Dr. about the subject/time ?
Also, most original transcriptions are copyrighted and cannot be placed on-line. -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
VViews > 14-12-2016, 11:36 AM
(14-12-2016, 11:25 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is wrong with reading a book of a prof. or Dr. about the subject/time ?
Also, most original transcriptions are copyrighted and cannot be placed on-line.
Nothing wrong at all, modern translations are indeed more readable in order to approach the subject and grasp the details of Aristotle's works.
A lot of medieval books relating to Aristotle are available online for free in the form of digitized manuscripts. Although these are obviously harder to read, I think they can give useful information about the way Aristotle's work was understood and represented in medieval times, and the vocabulary, spelling etc used in medieval versions would possibly be closer to the one used by the Voynich author. -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
Davidsch > 14-12-2016, 12:40 PM
I've read the "classical Elements versus physical Elements ("matter" - essay You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)."
There are not much points on which I agree.
I always have a big problem with papers where assumptions are made and then taken too far along the road. (apologies for any bad grammar)
The assumption of the basic elements is ok, you could even use all of Aristotle works and use it as an overlay, but it is only convincing if there are many similar works, and referenced images from the particular period. Those other references should not only look almost the same but should have accompanied text that would describe the same as what we see in the VMS. Or at least one of these. For example. Stamping a Rosette with the label earth need more backbone.
The theories in the paper and the referenced links, lack both (referenced text & images) and are not convincing for me at this point.
Yet, the angle is interesting and could be subject to more research and elaborate efforts. -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
juergenw > 18-12-2016, 01:01 PM
(13-12-2016, 12:44 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.>>Thanks David for your response. Did you find it nice (only) or also convincing?
I am convinced of your potential. ;-)
>> have a look at the previous paper
Where or which one?
>>NB: What do you make of the turbo/whirlwind comparison with R. Fludd (Cosmic Meteorology) with the Rosette text spiral?
Hm. Between 1617 and 1621 the English physician and polymath Robert Fludd published his masterwork Utriusque Cosmi, a book split into two volumes and packed with over 60 intricate engravings. A very nice blog You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Hi David,
I am bit surprised you mention the same source that I used as quote in my essay? Anyway, I am sure you found the first paper in the meantime (as it was reviewed an quoted in the 'Elements matter' essay of mine.) If not, David J placed it into the library You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.before. -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
juergenw > 18-12-2016, 01:16 PM
(12-12-2016, 08:52 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've read you paper quite rapidly and it was a nice read.
What's surprising is the swift confrontation with the 'spikes with the flags' represent fire.
Where is the basis for that? I would love to see some research on fire because the VMS rather lacks fire.
For your question on why/how I argue the 'fire' (Element') angle for the Rosette folio. Have a look at the attached comparison with a 15th century representation of the Heavens, seven planets and the four elements. Next to the textual basics, here the more visual comparison to Conrad von Megenberg's Book of Nature (there are two digitised version of that available, I used for the screenshot the Library of Congress version You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
Additionally, this screenshot and the source could give you another angle on your thread on the 'seven' you investigate with respect to the Rosette folio (your ' You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of Aristotle and the seven Elements' thread) . The title for the Megenberg folio is (translated from the preceding folio from German): Of the heavens, the seven planets and the four elements
(Conrad von Megenberg's 'The book of nature' was first printed in Augsburg in 1475. The screenshot's edition is a slightly later edition from Augsburg, printed in 1481).
NB: Needless to say that the seven bands represent the seven planets - you mentioned before in the other thread the '7' voynich vords with the 4th highlighted- possible indication for the sun's central position? I don't think the seven vords are representative of elements -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
Davidsch > 18-12-2016, 03:52 PM
![[Image: cosmos2.jpg]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JmOhe-3opIc/TTzQO4uraqI/AAAAAAAABOM/CGg24L3cTqc/s1600/cosmos2.jpg)
Accidently saw this today and imm. reminded me of your fire.
Source: A manuscript page of Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463 - 1494) (Giovanni Pico della Mirandola) - in "Compendium Artis Magnae and cabalisticae", 15th century
from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Le feu
Lair = L'air
laterre et leau= la terre et l'eau
It is a lot of reading, and between 13xx-15xx there are so many religious directions, but it seems there little pieces are slowly merging for me. -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
Davidsch > 21-12-2016, 12:34 PM
Another great article, however a bit more complex. Will show that the middle rosette ring is indeed the Earth (the planet).
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It is complex but should be do-able. When I have time I will try to write on the entire Rosette, but I do not have all elements glued together.
It's a bit like what has been published before, but not exactly: the VMS shows a more complex image than expected.
Before I publish anything, I need to cross check elements within the Humanism and the time-frame and that requires a lot of reading.
(Just ordered the entire Oresme biography, those are 1000 pages alone)
Perhaps you are also interestYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Q1: What is the correct historical name for the circled ring fire-air-water-earth (FAWE) ?
Q2: What is the first image since Aristotle that shows these elements as FAWE and how does it evolve? -
RE: The Rosette folio and Aristotle's Meteorologica
Davidsch > 22-12-2016, 02:43 PM
+-+-+-+-Aristotelianism: some reading can be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The ANSWER of Q2 can be found through scanning all relevant articles & book along the "the recovery of Aristotle"
which takes place around 1150 towards 13th century (42 books).
A full list of his books: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If you go through the list of books, you will see that many pages in the VMS could be related directly to these books.
Yes, I am aware that it is disputed that some works are not from A., but in medieval times they did not know that, yet.
If you go through the names of these books (without reading them)
you will agree that there could be a direct possibility of connecting the Voynich to it.
For example:
herbals ->
815a On Plants De Plantis
page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. top ->
453b On Sleep De Somno et Vigilia
458a On Dreams De Insomniis
462b On Divination in Sleep De Divinatione per Somnum
page 85 r2->
1249a On Virtues and Vices De Virtutibus et Vitiis Libellus
page rosette & 69r / 69v (I'm working on an explanation on these some time) ->
973a The Situations and Names
of Winds Ventorum Situs
page 83v ->
436a Sense and Sensibilia De Sensu et Sensibilibus
pages cosmo & rosette ->
268a On the Heavens De Caelo
314a On Generation and Corruption De Generatione et Corruptione
338a Meteorology Meteorologica
391a On the Universe De Mundo
page ? ->
464b On Length and Shortness
of Life De Longitudine et Brevitate Vitae
page ? ->
467b On Youth, Old Age, Life
and Death, and Respiration De Juventute et Senectute, De
Vita et Morte, De Respiratione
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And perhaps this is a far stretch but for those engaged into the VMS text as well, this gives useful information below, because the word structure in the VMS smells like artificial compositon (see T.Timm theory) :
Of things said without any combination, each signifies either substance or quantity or qualification or a relative or where or when or being-in-a-position or having or doing or being-affected. To give a rough idea, examples of substance are man, horse; of quantity: four-foot, five-foot; of qualification: white, grammatical; of a relative: double, half, larger; of where: in the Lyceum, in the market-place; of when: yesterday, last-year; of being-in-a-position: is-lying, is-sitting; of having: has-shoes-on, has-armour-on; of doing: cutting, burning; of being-affected: being-cut, being-burned. (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.