05-11-2016, 09:31 PM
R. Sale
I appreciate that you answer questions to the point. I agree with your answer to my third question - people knew about historical practice and may have referred to it.
I also agree that if the patterns were heraldic, this could open up an interesting way to understand the script.
The problem is that in my opinion the evidence that this section was built around heraldry is so very thin, that it's a dead end. There are a number of corresponding patterns and a handful of other possible indications, but these, like the hat, carry flaws which have to be explained away by the omnipresent argument of "obscuring". I just think it's a stretch that an intent to obscure an exposition about heraldry is the explanation for what we see: heraldic, semi-heraldic and non-heraldic patterns on a circle of barrels filled with naked (or possibly over-painted) women. In a manuscript without a single knight, sword, shield, coat of arms, you name it.
On the other hand, Diane and I have demonstrated that patterns were a very important part in several earlier cultures. Many of these patterns had a meaning and did not necessarily represent what was seen, just like in heraldry. I have presented plenty of examples of the simpler wavy line, which bear the same meaning: a protective barrier, a limit of a domain, a border. The patterns have ancient origins and spread wide and far before we see them in Europe.
For example, a very old example of the Serpent line as a protective barrier, in this case protecting the Sun on his passage through the underworld:
![[Image: 5119c0fd72d97343d2748a9715940ac1.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/51/19/c0/5119c0fd72d97343d2748a9715940ac1.jpg)
As a much later and different example, we see that the many decorations on the walls of the Dura Europos synagogue in Syria, which dates from the 3rd century CE making it one of the oldest in the world, a similar pattern is used as actual borders between the "frames".
![[Image: dura-sacrifice-of-elijah.jpg]](https://toldotyisrael.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/dura-sacrifice-of-elijah.jpg)
![[Image: battle-of-eben-ezer-wall-painting-from-t...bp23g1.jpg]](http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/f78b7ad45642452699396512e1e8a7ee/battle-of-eben-ezer-wall-painting-from-the-duraeuropos-one-of-the-bp23g1.jpg)
The one above also shows a familiar pattern on their mail shirts, but that is likely irrelevant to the VM. Diane has also produced many examples.
I have also shown that parallels for even more complex patterns could be found in Greco-Egyptian art, where they represent different types of materials. If I were so inclined and had enough time, I could surely find parallels for most of these patterns within the visual vocabulary of Greco-Roman Egypt, but I'm not sure if that would change much.
Of course, such patterns can also be found within medieval works (related or unrelated to older forms), so even if I believed that the contents of the manuscript was the product of a medieval European mind, I would still have a hard time understanding why it must be heraldry, based on this little and flawed evidence.
For a reminder of some of my favorite concrete examples - which you have seen already - see this post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I am not saying that there is a perfect solution for this. But I just think that within the manuscript as a whole, the evidence for heraldry as an informing system is too limited and too inaccurate.
I appreciate that you answer questions to the point. I agree with your answer to my third question - people knew about historical practice and may have referred to it.
I also agree that if the patterns were heraldic, this could open up an interesting way to understand the script.
The problem is that in my opinion the evidence that this section was built around heraldry is so very thin, that it's a dead end. There are a number of corresponding patterns and a handful of other possible indications, but these, like the hat, carry flaws which have to be explained away by the omnipresent argument of "obscuring". I just think it's a stretch that an intent to obscure an exposition about heraldry is the explanation for what we see: heraldic, semi-heraldic and non-heraldic patterns on a circle of barrels filled with naked (or possibly over-painted) women. In a manuscript without a single knight, sword, shield, coat of arms, you name it.
On the other hand, Diane and I have demonstrated that patterns were a very important part in several earlier cultures. Many of these patterns had a meaning and did not necessarily represent what was seen, just like in heraldry. I have presented plenty of examples of the simpler wavy line, which bear the same meaning: a protective barrier, a limit of a domain, a border. The patterns have ancient origins and spread wide and far before we see them in Europe.
For example, a very old example of the Serpent line as a protective barrier, in this case protecting the Sun on his passage through the underworld:
As a much later and different example, we see that the many decorations on the walls of the Dura Europos synagogue in Syria, which dates from the 3rd century CE making it one of the oldest in the world, a similar pattern is used as actual borders between the "frames".
The one above also shows a familiar pattern on their mail shirts, but that is likely irrelevant to the VM. Diane has also produced many examples.
I have also shown that parallels for even more complex patterns could be found in Greco-Egyptian art, where they represent different types of materials. If I were so inclined and had enough time, I could surely find parallels for most of these patterns within the visual vocabulary of Greco-Roman Egypt, but I'm not sure if that would change much.
Of course, such patterns can also be found within medieval works (related or unrelated to older forms), so even if I believed that the contents of the manuscript was the product of a medieval European mind, I would still have a hard time understanding why it must be heraldry, based on this little and flawed evidence.
For a reminder of some of my favorite concrete examples - which you have seen already - see this post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I am not saying that there is a perfect solution for this. But I just think that within the manuscript as a whole, the evidence for heraldry as an informing system is too limited and too inaccurate.