06-02-2017, 05:36 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-02-2017, 05:46 PM by Diane.
Edit Reason: dropped text
)
VViews,
As the person who - as late as 2012 - had to explain to the second mailing list that Egypt hadn't become a mythical land in the middle ages, and who first argued that the imagery was appropriate to a peripatetic profession and that, having treated the diagrams and other sections in detail, that the imagery appeared to me best explained as a traders handbook, of which the botanical section related to the maritime 'spice road' and the astronomical 'ladies' folios to the overland 'silk road' and who also (as I'm told) first introduced the matter of navigation in this context and - perhaps - also first mentioned Michael of Rhodes in connection with Voynich studies, I think I should support Koen here since he hasn't really had time yet to suplicate the historical and archaeological research which resulted in those conclusions.
First, I think it's a misconception that all the content originated at the one time, and for the one purpose, or that it was all originally secret.
But to explain that properly, by reference to what we know of the history of trade between the Hellenistic period and the mid-fourteenth century is not possible. The short answer, though, is no. The sea-route by which pepper came to the notice of Hellenistic writers such as Theophrastus remained the route by which pepper came in Roman times, and still as late as the end of the fourteenth century.
In the same way, while information about ports and duties changes over time, as towns came and went, I myself have never argued the imagery inextricably linked to the written part of the text, and recently in conversation with a correspondent I gave it as my view that the written part of the text probably took its present form during what historians call 'the Mongol century'.
As I read further, I see you also made some of the same points, though about others I can't agree. Once more, it isn't the sort of thing to be decided by what seems likely, but what is actually documented or otherwise attested.
yes, most of the above is demonstrable, except the notion that 'desirable resources fell out of favour and new ones were sought out'.
For the botanical section and its frame of reference... if you accept my conclusion that the plants are non-Mediterranean... the idea of fads and fashions doesn't really apply. A plant that yielded fibre continued to do so and so on. I think that for all its various failings, ethnology has, with archaeology, helped dispel the idea that we can apply to the older world the post-industrial society's idea of novelty and of "change and progress" as things constantly desired.
I think that is an idea you'd have to define as well as justify. Ships are either better- or worse- suited to a particular sea and a particular purpose, and a ship which is made better for certain needs in a certain sort of sea may actually become less well suited to other seas and other needs. But then I wasn't talking about the botanical section in relation to ship-building so much as maintaining a ship or caravan and its crew. Because that's what most of the plants in that section are useful for. I always work from the evidence offered by the primary object, through the archaeological, ethnological, art-history and other matter, from which I reach any conclusions. Apart from anything else, I like to be able to show exactly how I came to hold an opinion on any point.
VVviews, you're just guessing aren't you?
In fact two important impacts on the maritime trade between Alexandria-Cairo and the Indian Ocean were (1) the shifting of the east African plate which raised the level at which the Nile entered the head of the Red sea and (2) that eruption which brought the 'mini ice-age' upon Europe. It certainly did occur in southeast Asia, but to see whether and how it affected imports of eastern products, one has to rely less on hypothesis and what seems plausible to oneself, and much more on the contemporary tax-records, mercantile accounts and so forth. Not many Voynicheros seem to have that level of interest in history, or enough time to do research of that depth.
First, if Koen is arguing that the written part of the text is a trader's account of the Orient written in the eleventh century (or earlier) then it's his take, and only he can explain why he thinks that might be so.
As for imposing the standards of the twenty-first century, with rapid travel, mass invasion by tourists and armies of anywhere the Google app provides a map for, and mass media and mass individual transport etc... upon the medieval east or west, it is a huge anachronism, sorry.
Look at it this way: when nineteenth century archaeologists went to Egypt, they noted that the customs of the people remained recognisably those described by Herodotus, even though Herodotus lived before Alexander the Great, and by the nineteenth century every formal aspect of the older Egyptian culture and of Greco-Egyptian culture - was long gone.
Is astrology 'obsolete knowledge'? Is the book of Genesis 'obsolete knowledge'? Are Plato's dialogues 'obsolete knowledge'? Most of the texts excerpted to provide the little captions on Latin European mappamundi were 'obsolete' in that sense.
Oh, how nice of you. You know, I think you must be the first person to have taken seriously my references to Michael of Rhodes and other navigators... or to the relevance of navigational and maritime practice, in general.
Thank you. I hope more people will do the same in the time to come.
As the person who - as late as 2012 - had to explain to the second mailing list that Egypt hadn't become a mythical land in the middle ages, and who first argued that the imagery was appropriate to a peripatetic profession and that, having treated the diagrams and other sections in detail, that the imagery appeared to me best explained as a traders handbook, of which the botanical section related to the maritime 'spice road' and the astronomical 'ladies' folios to the overland 'silk road' and who also (as I'm told) first introduced the matter of navigation in this context and - perhaps - also first mentioned Michael of Rhodes in connection with Voynich studies, I think I should support Koen here since he hasn't really had time yet to suplicate the historical and archaeological research which resulted in those conclusions.
Quote:If such a secret trader's guide book existed, wouldn't it's contents become utterly obsolete after a thousand years?
First, I think it's a misconception that all the content originated at the one time, and for the one purpose, or that it was all originally secret.
But to explain that properly, by reference to what we know of the history of trade between the Hellenistic period and the mid-fourteenth century is not possible. The short answer, though, is no. The sea-route by which pepper came to the notice of Hellenistic writers such as Theophrastus remained the route by which pepper came in Roman times, and still as late as the end of the fourteenth century.
In the same way, while information about ports and duties changes over time, as towns came and went, I myself have never argued the imagery inextricably linked to the written part of the text, and recently in conversation with a correspondent I gave it as my view that the written part of the text probably took its present form during what historians call 'the Mongol century'.
As I read further, I see you also made some of the same points, though about others I can't agree. Once more, it isn't the sort of thing to be decided by what seems likely, but what is actually documented or otherwise attested.
Quote:centers of production changed, desirable resources fell out of favor and new ones were sought out, empires rose and fell, alliances were made and broken, places that were friendly could become hostile
yes, most of the above is demonstrable, except the notion that 'desirable resources fell out of favour and new ones were sought out'.
For the botanical section and its frame of reference... if you accept my conclusion that the plants are non-Mediterranean... the idea of fads and fashions doesn't really apply. A plant that yielded fibre continued to do so and so on. I think that for all its various failings, ethnology has, with archaeology, helped dispel the idea that we can apply to the older world the post-industrial society's idea of novelty and of "change and progress" as things constantly desired.
Quote:shipbuilding technology advanced
I think that is an idea you'd have to define as well as justify. Ships are either better- or worse- suited to a particular sea and a particular purpose, and a ship which is made better for certain needs in a certain sort of sea may actually become less well suited to other seas and other needs. But then I wasn't talking about the botanical section in relation to ship-building so much as maintaining a ship or caravan and its crew. Because that's what most of the plants in that section are useful for. I always work from the evidence offered by the primary object, through the archaeological, ethnological, art-history and other matter, from which I reach any conclusions. Apart from anything else, I like to be able to show exactly how I came to hold an opinion on any point.
Quote:climate...
VVviews, you're just guessing aren't you?
In fact two important impacts on the maritime trade between Alexandria-Cairo and the Indian Ocean were (1) the shifting of the east African plate which raised the level at which the Nile entered the head of the Red sea and (2) that eruption which brought the 'mini ice-age' upon Europe. It certainly did occur in southeast Asia, but to see whether and how it affected imports of eastern products, one has to rely less on hypothesis and what seems plausible to oneself, and much more on the contemporary tax-records, mercantile accounts and so forth. Not many Voynicheros seem to have that level of interest in history, or enough time to do research of that depth.
Quote:I would think that a guide to trading in the Orient written in 1017 would be utterly useless, and potentially even dangerous to a trader working in 2017 so why would it be different then.
First, if Koen is arguing that the written part of the text is a trader's account of the Orient written in the eleventh century (or earlier) then it's his take, and only he can explain why he thinks that might be so.
As for imposing the standards of the twenty-first century, with rapid travel, mass invasion by tourists and armies of anywhere the Google app provides a map for, and mass media and mass individual transport etc... upon the medieval east or west, it is a huge anachronism, sorry.
Look at it this way: when nineteenth century archaeologists went to Egypt, they noted that the customs of the people remained recognisably those described by Herodotus, even though Herodotus lived before Alexander the Great, and by the nineteenth century every formal aspect of the older Egyptian culture and of Greco-Egyptian culture - was long gone.
Quote:.. obsolete knowledge..
Is astrology 'obsolete knowledge'? Is the book of Genesis 'obsolete knowledge'? Are Plato's dialogues 'obsolete knowledge'? Most of the texts excerpted to provide the little captions on Latin European mappamundi were 'obsolete' in that sense.
Quote:And by the way, those provincial mariner books did survive: see the Michael of Rhodes MS I put in the library for one example.
Oh, how nice of you. You know, I think you must be the first person to have taken seriously my references to Michael of Rhodes and other navigators... or to the relevance of navigational and maritime practice, in general.
Thank you. I hope more people will do the same in the time to come.