Sagittarius

[MarcoP]

In my humble opipion, someone should assemble a file similar to my Scorpios file (the big one, not just the 24 or whatever the number is) on the Sagittarius archers to show likenesses, dates and areas of origin/use. That may reveal something hitherto unsuspected, especially if assembled from earliest date of appearance onward (as opposed to doing it region by region or for one specific region only). It needs to be as all inclusive as possible.

But not me.

I did the Scorpios and don't want to be a hog. (And I am essentially a very lazy person.)

Maybe it could be a community project with everyone sending in their contributions to a compiler person?

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. file with Crossbow Sagittarius images mostly identified by Darren Worley. These images were originally published by Stephen Bax on his blog, with comments by Darren and myself:
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I hope I have included all relevant images. I attach a pdf version of the file.
I am grateful to Darren and Stephen for collecting and publishing all this valuable information!

The page includes other images originally pointed out by Rene Zandbergen and a possible candidate identified by David Jackson.

[-JKP-]

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[Diane]

Type of crossbow identified as one certainly used by Spanish marines no later than 1510.

Possibly also represented much earlier in a French manuscript - still waiting for a person able to see it in person to report back.

The figure is analysed cap a pied
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[MarcoP]

Thanks to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. who pointed out that I missed a crossbow Sagittarius You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I updated the googledoc linked in the first post of this thread. I attach the corresponding pdf.

[R. Sale]

Happy to make the connection - and stir things up. The Swabian side of Lake Constance needs to be considered as well. It seems to be of particular note, that nablator's example has a style of hat that matches one of the other illustrations in your database, given the scarcity of hats over all. Also absent is armor. They are all hunters, not soldiers with crossbows - plenty of those in other sources.

Interesting to read previous discussions, first about the archer's stance - aiming or something else. And then about the working parts, an apparent VMs error.

Adding the 'sleeves' investigation to the 'Sagittarius' investigation helps to interpret the VMs illustration. Particularly so after Cod. Sang. 827 is added to the 'sleeves' discussion. It is a clear confirmation of a human Sagittarius with a crossbow and bagpipe sleeves. It also fits the VMs C-14 dates, though the general evidence is more prevalent after 1450.

What is unique and rare about VMs Sagittarius is..........! Have you guessed it? It's the hat.

[Aga Tentakulus]

It is a Chaperon.

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[R. Sale]

Thanks, Aga, - having the correct terminology here is a boost. I know nothing about medieval hats. The VMs Sagittarius illustration has a fairly substantial brim. Whether it is rolled or flat is impossible to say. And then there is that upper appendage - that max headroom, all unused. Is there another hat like it?

The three 'chaperon' examples are quite different among themselves. Perhaps, there can be a timeline for hats. The best representation for starters is the illustration of Philip the Good, but the upper part of the hat is nowhere near long enough. It's not as much about the chronology here, which can be easily accepted, it's more about the geography and where the most extravagant examples might show up.

[R. Sale]

There's more at:

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It's interesting in the part about 'Political chaperons' - could it be the *color* that is significant?

Is this another VMs reference to historical events?

[R. Sale]

The Sagittarius investigation has shown that hats are quite uncommon and the only two examples are small, 'peasant caps'. Yet VMs Sagittarius has this extravagant, white chaperon. Why?

To paraphrase an old, Clint Eastwood western: 'Sometimes <an investigation> can depend on a mere scrap of information.' And there is that scrap of information: 1413, Paris, opponents of the Armagnacs.

Who were the "opponents of the Armagnacs"?

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Here it only says, "white caps". The article on chaperons says they wore chaperons.

Why 1413 and Paris? Because of the VMs cosmos and BNF Fr. 565, c. 1410, Paris.

[Gioynich]

Speaking of hats, based on my research, I can confirm they are pretty rare (except for Persian sagittariuses). Here is one with a vaguely similar hat.
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