Rosette folio detail and cosmological element display

[juergenw]

Koen posted an interesting cosmological image in the 'wolkenband thread' You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
I found that very interesting in a different context: For the first time I saw simple signs (little circles, little ticks in group of two) as part of the concentric circles , which I thought of depictions of elements.

In that context, I never found a hint for a similar depiction in the Rosette folio for the four spikes (in the Rosette folio) that connect four of the outermost spheres with the central sphere (see attached image).

Question now is, is that comparsion valid? Obviously only the little circle could be seen as a match but that is far from sure. But could the circles in the concentric display in: Paris, Bibl. Sainte-Geneviève, ms. 1029, f 108 (angels cranking the celestial spheres,  Bartholomaeus Anglicus, Le livre des propriétés des choses. c.1350)  be related to the 'link of spheres in the Rosette folio (centre and four spokes) ? In the Rosette folio these are definitely four different little IDs commencing (1) circle, (2) two chevrons, (3) group of three ticks in italics and (4) group of three ticks in straight line/alignment.

If not, what could the circle and the group of two ticks (in ) or the four different signatures in the Rosette folio represent?

[Koen G]

I was happy with this find for another reason: I knew almost certainly that the wavy/serpent lines in Q13a represent the polar circles, and in this diagram there seems to be at least an echo of the same custom.



It could be related to the Rosettes foldout, though I find it hard to link it to the rest of the foldout. Would it be about celestial navigation then?

Actually I thought you were going to link this to the "pipes" thread. There are just as many tick pairs as circles (23??) and if you connect them you get pipes.

[Sam G]

The "dotted sine wave" motif in that diagram is also pretty similar to the one in the bottom center rosette:

   

[Koen G]

This is getting more intriguing. The manuscript can be viewed online here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Here's the full size image and another diagram.

[R. Sale]

Intriguing indeed!

Sam has got it - spot on.  A dotted sine wave in a straight line and one adapted to a circle.

Koen's second example in Post #4 is then a three dot variation.

Interestingly as well, this illustration is from Paris. The closest matches to the nebuly representation of the cloud band in the Central Rosette come from Oresme and de Pizan, also published in Paris. I wouldn't say that this *proves* anything, but if we are looking for a confluence of factors, and I think we should be, then perhaps this is something to investigate further.

How widespread, chronologically and geographically, is this dotted sine wave pattern?

[-JKP-]

When I saw Koen post this on the other thread, I thought, "Oooooh, I wish I'd spotted that one."

In the second diagram, notice how Jupiter is a wavier, wider line? That might be because Jupiter/Jove is the brightest (Venus is sometimes brighter, but not on a regular basis) and why Jupiter was considered the head honcho.

Not counting the sun, of course, but they always gave the sun a different significance because it was seen during the day, but of the "night stars" as they thought of them, Jupiter is brightest.

[Koen G]

When I saw Koen post this on the other thread, I thought, "Oooooh, I wish I'd spotted that one."

Thanks 

I wonder what the significance is of the colors black and red in the four part central circle. It also returns in the bands. Rather odd combination...

[Koen G]

Apparently there are about 200 surviving versions of this text, manuscripts and early print. It would be interesting to hunt down the diagrams in any of them and map these patterns.

I thought I had found one already, but this is the "angels turning wheel" diagram that first drew my attention, but from another MS


Angels turning the world on its axis, from Matfres Eymengau de Beziers, Breviari d’amor (BL MS Harley4940, early 14th century):

[Koen G]

From the same MS:

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The thing in the middle kind of reminds me of the whirly shape in the middle of some VM diagrams.

[Koen G]

I wonder if the sine wave with dots may have originated as a very stylized vine, for example used as a border decoration. I'm not claiming any connection whatsoever to the following coin, but it gave me the idea:



Not sure why that would matter, but I like to think about where these kinds of customs came from