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Images and Experts part 3 - R. Sale - 20-08-2016
This conversation has gone from Images to Experts and now back to images again. Kind of like ping-pong, isn't it? However I'd like to follow up on Davidsch's comment on Pisces and Cancer pairings. You are correct to point out that the illustration of paired crayfish in VMs Cancer is a possible example of intentional pairing, where as Pisces is always a pair and the artist has no reasonable alternative. Just like Gemini.
With VMs Pisces the concern is with its placement in the Zodiac sequence. Pisces in the initial position is highly erratic. So it's not the medallion itself that is unexpected, but its placement. And it is true that Pisces, as the initial pair, is so expected and so subtle that the pairing aspect totally escapes consideration because the positional aspect is such a surprise. But that pales to virtually nothing when it is discovered that Aries and Taurus have been split into halves. This is an outlandish shock. What passes unrecognized is the presence of pairing here as well.
So let's look at the evidence provided by the illustrations of the medallions of the first five houses of the VMs Zodiac with a focus on pairs and pairing.
Pisces is a pair
Aries is split in half. Two halves are a pair.
Taurus ditto.
Gemini is a pair of twins.
Cancer is a pair of crayfish rather that the much more common singular crab.
Each of these VMs Zodiac houses is a pair. Some natural and some unexpected either in form or in placement. In addition, pairings occur within this sequence. A pair of fish and a pair of crayfish are two pairs of aquatic animals. Two pairs are a pair of pairs. A pair of goats and a pair of bulls are both pairs of land animals and a second pair of pairs. And therefore we have a pair of paired pairs. The Aries and Taurus pairs are also paired again by the method of their construction.
The examples of pairing exist these VMs illustrations. The unusual factors involved in the creation of this sequence strongly imply intentional construction. The purpose of that construction is to put together a sequence and collection of pairs in order to set forth pairs and pairing as an idea, concept, model, and paradigm to serve as a basis for further further investigation.
That investigation now shifts from the primary Zodiac medallions and moves to secondary images, starting again in VMs Pisces with another complex of pairings at the top of the outer ring and then to a relevant, historical complex of images where we have no experts.
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - -JKP- - 20-08-2016
(20-08-2016, 06:31 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This conversation has gone from Images to Experts and now back to images again. Kind of like ping-pong, isn't it? However I'd like to follow up on Davidsch's comment on Pisces and Cancer pairings. You are correct to point out that the illustration of paired crayfish in VMs Cancer is a possible example of intentional pairing, where as Pisces is always a pair and the artist has no reasonable alternative. Just like Gemini.
Just for the record, I believe that was my comment.
With VMs Pisces the concern is with its placement in the Zodiac sequence. Pisces in the initial position is highly erratic. So it's not the medallion itself that is unexpected, but its placement. And it is true that Pisces, as the initial pair, is so expected and so subtle that the pairing aspect totally escapes consideration because the positional aspect is such a surprise. But that pales to virtually nothing when it is discovered that Aries and Taurus have been split into halves. This is an outlandish shock. What passes unrecognized is the presence of pairing here as well.
It's uncommon to start with Pisces, but whether it's highly erratic depends how you look at it.
1. If you see the zodiacs as related to medical astrology (or something else that was "informed" by the positions of the stars in the middle ages) then the zodiacs don't have to be in sequence or to start at any given point or to be shown once or more than once. For example, if the cycles relate to marriage or childbirth, or other important life experiences, then the zodiac symbols might identify celestially "propitious" times to engage in these activities and it may be coincidental that there were enough of them to put them in order so that it almost looks like a full cycle.
or...
2. If you look at some of the old zodiacs, you'll see summer and winter solstice represented by suns and moons, and Pisces immediately follows the solstice. If the person who created these wheels were Pagan rather than Christian or some other more recent religion, then solstice is extremely significant, a sacred event, and some considered solstice or the equinox to be the start of the year, depending on their beliefs and location. In the south, where spring comes earlier, Aquarius, rather than Aries was sometimes considered the start of the year. So... what comes first really depends.
Personally I'm leaning more toward #1 than #2 as a possible explanation for Pisces being first. If these are like astrological castings, then the point of the zodiacs is to show the best times to do things rather than being a representation of a full zodiac sequence.
...
The examples of pairing exist these VMs illustrations. The unusual factors involved in the creation of this sequence strongly imply intentional construction. The purpose of that construction is to put together a sequence and collection of pairs in order to set forth pairs and pairing as an idea, concept, model, and paradigm to serve as a basis for further further investigation.
I'm certainly in agreement that the pairing of Cancer is both intentional and unusual.
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - Koen G - 20-08-2016
Those are very good points, JKP. It's not because the series uses the "zodiacal" constellations, that an actual Zodiac was intended. Regardless of what the images originally were, in their current form it seems clear that they were intended to bring to mind a number of those constellations through which the Sun passes.
I don't even think anyone would disagree with that. Some do believe that more ancient, unrelated imagery underlies the current forms, which explains the unusual aspects of their appearance.
Now what I don't yet understand, and this question is aimed to R.Sale, is why we must assume a "pairing paradigm". Yes, there are two bulls and two goats, but other explanations have been offered for that. There are two fish, as always, and the lobsters appear to mimic their arrangement. There's one hunter, one "Scorpio", one Virgo, one big cat, one set of twins - as always.
The idea cannot be that the one who put this series together wished to demonstrate innate pairing within the constellations. It are exactly his artificial alterations that would allow for this in the first place.
And if he was altering the series to impose upon it some desired symmetry, then why not all the way through?
And if he imposed the pairing only on part of the series - then why? Am I missing something?
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - MarcoP - 20-08-2016
In case someone drops in and has not read You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about pairs, Pierpont Morgan M.511 is a possibly interesting parallel.
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - Koen G - 20-08-2016
Thanks, Marco! I had missed those manuscripts somehow. Some of its imagery looks like it's based on rather old models. See what's behind Leo?
![[Image: m511.004ra.jpg]](http://corsair.morganlibrary.org/icaimages/5/m511.004ra.jpg)
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - R. Sale - 20-08-2016
JKP,
Attribution noted & corrected.
Is 'highly erratic' a bit too much? Perhaps. But imagine the Zodiac man of medical astrology with his feet up top. And in regular astrology, Aries is always the first house and Pisces is the twelfth. Otherwise the sequence problems were easily resolved by displaying the symbols in a circular format. But the VMs has a linear sequence like a calendar. Calendars may include their zodiac signs, but what calendars are composed as celestial spheres?
Christian religion also uses the vernal equinox to set the date for Easter. And the effects of precession, greatly added to by the errors in the Julian calendar, had moved the date of the equinox significantly forward in the calendar. Hence the need for calendar reform finally accomplished by the Gregorian changes (well after VMs parchment dates) with the need for such change previously noted by Roger Bacon and Regiomontanus.
However, rather than looking at the specifics of each house (which is a valid area of investigation), I want to change the investigation to focus on the sequence of parings that this set of medallions creates. Then to follow on with the full set of pairings and to establish the concept of pairs. And then use that paradigm as the basis for further investigation and the discovery of additional examples of pairing, particularly as they occur in the beginning of the VMs Zodiac.
Koen,
As I see it, the point is to provide examples sufficient to establish the paradigm and to demonstrate that it is not accidental. That doesn't mean it has to go on forever. What if all the houses had pairs? Some bright fellow would say, 'Hey look, there's two of everything.' Might as well use a flashing neon sign. The information presented is sufficient to accomplish the task. It does the job. It does not need to be glaringly obvious. Indeed, subtlety seems to play an intentional role.
The second point is not to question and to long for hypothetical examples that are not presented in the illustrations. Those are things we cannot investigate. The point is to seek and discover the examples contained in the illustrations - to follow the evidence that the illustrations provide.
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - Koen G - 20-08-2016
Okay, follow up question then. If someone really had a form of pairing in mind against the background of heraldry, wouldn't we expect a more familiar form of heraldic duplication? Like two animals facing each other? Why two animals facing the same direction in separate circles surrounded by a different series of stars 'n' ladies?
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - R. Sale - 21-08-2016
In the case of VMs Zodiac, the houses of Aries and Taurus are made into pairs by dividing them into two parts, each with 15 nymphs and stars. There really is no heraldry in the medallions per se. The significant parts are the pairing and the fact that the pairs are all in sequence. It is what it is and the reader either finds the clue and makes use of it or not. The second round of pairing starts with the tub patterns at the top of VMs Pisces and this then turns toward patterns that correspond to basic heraldic designs. The basic point being that, of the patterns seen on the tubs of VMs Pisces and Aries pages, heraldry is the discipline that does the best job of naming those patterns and names more of them than any other discipline - as I've not seen an alternative discipline that names any of them. They are not all paired, but some clearly are. So the pairing paradigm continues.
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - Koen G - 21-08-2016
Ahh, I understand. I think. But I still don't get what the ultimate purpose of this pairing is. At the moment the argument seems partially cirular to me. We have to find more evidence of the pairing paradigm in order to uncover the partially obscured, partially realized pairing paradigm.
If it sounds like I am making fun, I am not. In fact, my own view of the central emblems is also one of duality: each figure refers to an ancient form and a zodiacal constellation at once.
Only I think the older forms, as well as the patterns, are of north African origin. It should be fun to hold a comparative exhibition one day: the most convincing antique parallels for the patterns versus the best heraldic ones
RE: Images and Experts part 3 - R. Sale - 21-08-2016
Well, hopefully, the *ultimate* purpose is to make better sense of the VMs and what it contains. In the short run, the purpose of pairing is to establish a paradigm that will serve as an investigative theme that can be followed and verified by the discovery of additional, new examples. After going through the medallions, pairing shifts to a second phase as demonstrated by the four figures and the tub patterns at the top of VMs Pisces outer ring. Here there is a complex of pairs: striped and dotted tub patters, male and female occupants. After that the level of difficulty goes up a notch. Like Aries and Taurus, not all pairs are on the same page. The papelonny pattern on Pisces is repeated on Dark Aries.
Another aspect of the investigation of tub patterns is whether these designs correspond with similar patterns coming from other sources. Some have suggested pottery from Islamic sources in Spain as a possibility. And clearly there are patterns with alternating stripes to be found. However, heraldry not only has the vertical and horizontal stripes seen in pottery. Heraldry has the chevrons, the concentric circles and the scale-like patterns found in the VMs. And heraldry has its own terminology to name these patterns.
It is, then, the combination of pairing and heraldry that reveals the hidden, historical identifications found on VMs White Aries. A number of other elements in the illustration help to confirm the identification. Not only does this demonstrate a historical grounding in the VMs illustrations, but it is one that is uniquely based of a two-to-two correspondence.
Does this give a solution to the VMs? Clearly not. However it is (IMHO) the most significant investigative opening based on a functional set of integrated data provided by the VMs illustrations. Nevertheless, significant, even critical, information may have been placed on pages now missing from the manuscript. But we won't know if we don't give it a shot.