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+--- Thread: [Article] Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. (/thread-5430.html)
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Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Torsten - 07-03-2026
Thomas Ernst published his views about the Voynich manuscript:
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RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Koen G - 07-03-2026
You're a native German speaker, Torsten. "So nim gefang mich"? No alarm bells, no critical thoughts?
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Torsten - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 09:21 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You're a native German speaker, Torsten. "So nim gefang mich"? No alarm bells, no critical thoughts?
I just reported a summary of what Thomas Ernst writes on his web page.
For my view on f116v see my post from 2016: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Koen G - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 08:37 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.he approaches the manuscript as someone with extensive expertise in medieval handwriting conventions.
Do you know more about his area of expertise or experience with 15th century handwriting? Confusing long-s with f to turn gasmich into "gefang mich" is... Well, not something I ever learned.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Torsten - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 09:36 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-03-2026, 08:37 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.he approaches the manuscript as someone with extensive expertise in medieval handwriting conventions.
Do you know more about his area of expertise or experience with 15th century handwriting? Confusing long-s with f to turn gasmich into "gefang mich" is... Well, not something I ever learned.
Again it is only a summary of what Ernst writes. Don't take my word for granted. Read the details yourself.
For the person of Thomas Ernst see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Ernst solved the cipher in Book III of Trithemius's Steganographia:
- Ernst, Thomas. (1996), “Schwarzweisse Magie. Der Schlussel zum dritten Buch der Steganographia des Trithemius.” Daphnis 25 (1996): Heft 1;
Some other publications:
- Ernst, Thomas. (2021). Die zifra picolominea: Eine Geheimschrift der Habsburger während des Dreißigjährigen Krieges. Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung. 129. 124-147. 10.7767/miog.2021.129.1.124.
- Ernst, Thomas. (2001). ANATOMIE EINER FÄLSCHUNG:. Daphnis 30, 3-4, 513-595, Available From: Brill You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Koen G - 07-03-2026
Your first paragraph gives the impression that you personally recommend the research and you personally confirm that the author has "extensive expertise in medieval handwriting conventions."
One of the many reasons why we shouldn't hand over our critical thinking to AI summaries.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Torsten - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 10:34 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your first paragraph gives the impression that you personally recommend the research and you personally confirm that the author has "extensive expertise in medieval handwriting conventions."
One of the many reasons why we shouldn't hand over our critical thinking to AI summaries.
The debate should be about Ernst's arguments, not about my summary. Therefore I have removed it. The text of Ernst speaks for itself.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Aga Tentakulus - 08-03-2026
Zum Wort "(g)as" was er als "gef" liest, müsste ja eigentlich "gaf" heisen.
"gaf" ist allemannisch und bedeutet "schau".
Beispiele:
gaf mich nöd a / schau mich nicht an.
Er gaft alli Wieber na. Er schaut allen Frauen nach.
Er hat keine Ahnung wovon er spricht.
The word “(g)as,” which he reads as “gef,” should actually be “gaf.”
‘Gaf’ is Alemannic and means “look.”
Examples:
gaf mich nöd a / don't look at me.
Er gaft alli Wieber na. He looks at all the women.
He has no idea what he's talking about.
Wie im Beispiel
"gaf mich nöd a".
Hier hat das "a" am Schluss eine Bedeutung.
Gleich wie das "o" am Ende "mich o".
Wer das nicht versteht, versteht sowieso kein Oberdeutsch.
As in the example
“gaf mich nöd a.”
Here, the “a” at the end has a meaning.
Just like the “o” at the end of “mich o.”
Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't understand Upper German anyway.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - LisaFaginDavis - 08-03-2026
(08-03-2026, 08:57 AM)Aga Tentaculus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding the word "(g)as", which he reads as "gef", it should actually be "gaf".
"gaf" is Alemannic and means "look".
Examples:
Don't look at me.
He looks at all the women.
He has no idea what he's talking about.
The word “(g)as,” which he reads as “gef,” should actually be “gaf.”
'Gaf' is Alemannic and means “look.”
Examples:
gaf mich nöd a / don't look at me.
He looks at all the women.
He has no idea what he's talking about.
As in the example
"Don't give me a break".
Here, the "a" at the end has a meaning.
Just like the "o" at the end of "mich o".
Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand Upper German anyway.
As in the example
“Don't give me a break.”
Here, the “a” at the end has a meaning.
Just like the “o” at the end of “mich o.”
Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't understand Upper German anyway.
There is quite a lot here that is simply incorrect. Ernst is a skilled early-modern paleographer, but there are huge changes in book culture between the early 1400s and the next century. Expertise in one does not necessarily apply to the other. Setting aside the paleographical argument, even the codicological observations are simply not true. He contends that the quire numbers "always" appear on the first recto instead of the last verso and the "incorrect" placement of the Voynich quire numbers supports his forgery theory. It is true that beginning in the late 1400s, when manuscripts begin to emulate printed books, quire numbers may appear, if they are used at all, on the first recto of a quire. That's because in early printed books, the quire number (called a "signature" in a printed book) does indeed appear on the first recto. But in earlier manuscripts quire numbers almost always appear on the final verso, along with the catchwords (if there are any). Both elements are sometimes lost when the book is trimmed for binding. The Voynich quire numbers are exactly where they should be (except for the "20"). He also misread some of the quire numbers. The missing numbers are in sequence: 12, 16, and 18. The missing quire numbers are easily explained by simply referring to the collation statement. the number "12" is missing because it would have been on f. 74, the missing conjoint of f. 73. Number "16" is missing because the bifolio 91|92 is missing and the "16" would have been on the bottom of f. 92v. Number "18" is missing because the bifolio 97|98 is missing and the "18" would have been at the bottom of f. 98v. I explain all of this in my Materiality lecture, starting around minute 29. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Thomas Ernst Handwriting and Paleographic Design in the VM. - Aga Tentakulus - 08-03-2026
That was funny.
From “Don't look at me” to “Don't give me a break.”
That tells me that even AI has no idea what it's doing.