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+--- Thread: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville (/thread-4837.html)
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f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Bluetoes101 - 31-07-2025
This seems to make sense to me, however, I know nothing about this stuff at all so offer it to those who do.
It seemed to me once you think of the VM diagram from a "what's up?" perspective, it makes sense (given the below).
That is to say we are looking up at the sky at what we can see and can't see. It's about as simple as I've found a VM image to be, so undoubtedly it is incorrect.
My understanding is that by 14XX this was still applicable knowledge to most who were not an astrologer.
"Isidore of Seville".
From - "The cosmos and its parts"
((c. 560–636) and translated).
"Portals"
The sky has two portals: the East and the West, for the sun
enters through one portal and withdraws through the
other.
"Unknown paths beyond east/west portals"
lii. The path of the sun (De itinere solis) The sun, when
it rises, holds a path through the south. Afterward, it
goes to the west and plunges itself into the Ocean, and it
travels unknown paths under the earth, and once again
runs back to the east
"Air and then Sky (above)"
Sometimes the word ‘sky’ is used for the air, where
winds and clouds and storms and whirlwinds arise.
Lucretius (cf. On the Nature of Things 4.133):
The sky (caelum), which is called air (aer).
And the Psalm (78:2; 103:12, Vulgate) refers to “fowls of
the sky (caelum),” when it is clear that birds fly in the air;
out of habit we also call this air, ‘sky.’ Thus when we ask
whether it is fair or overcast we sometimes say, “How is
the air?” and sometimes “How is the sky?”
"Sky is where the sun and moon are"
God embellished the heaven and
filled it with bright light – that is, he adorned it with the
sun and the gleaming orb of the moon, and the glorious
constellations of glittering stars. [In a different way, it
is named from engraving (caelare) the superior bodies.]
2. It is called
L in Greek, after the term QY ,
that is, ‘seeing,’ because the air is transparent and clearer
for seeing. In Sacred Scripture the sky is called the firmament (firmamentum), because it is secured (firmare) by
the course of the stars and by fixed and immutable laws.
"the stars are in the ether"
The ether
(aether) is the place where the stars are, and signifies
that fire which is separated high above from the entire
world. Of course, ether is itself an element, but aethra
(i.e. another word for ether) is the radiance of ether;
it is a Greek word. 2. The sphere (sphaera) of the sky
is so named because it has a round shape in appearance. But anything of such a shape is called a sphaera
by the Greeks from its roundness, such as the balls that
children play with.
*It's not entirely certain what the firmament means in this comment (to me), so I opted for "The ether" which seemed very clear, but I suspect they mean much in the same.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 01-08-2025
Why should there be any esoteric content?
You even mention "Air" at one position yourself, which is shown there (and at three other ends) as a "blow", known from many medieval drawings.
I would consider all diagonal inbound lines as "blows"/winds also (clearly for the one coming from coloured TO badge), but all leading water/rain with them. Suns and moons may give a hint to day rain or night rain.
But at all, this can be seen as a simple windrose with 8 winds, which was not quite unusual in that era.
Unfortunately, none of the wordings fit to any of the traditional naming of ancient wind systems, so this one is an undefined page again.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - RobGea - 01-08-2025
Using Isidore of Sevilles' - "The cosmos and its parts" from a ""what's up" perspective to describe f67v2 seems like a fair intepretation.
There are 3 points i'd like to add.
1. Isidore makes no mention of the 4 things at the outer edge of the drawing ( theres varying voynichero ideas for these ).
2. Isidore says 2 portals for the Sun, there are 2 extra here , though by extension we could say that these are the 2 portals for the Moon. ( idk how valid that would be ).
3. Isidores definitions suck.
If we ditch "sky' entirely then we would have:
Air --> where the birds are.
Firmament --> where the sun and moon are.
Ether --> where the stars are ( and it is sphere shaped ).
Then we can just replace 'Sky' for "Firmament" in your annotated diagram and we are done.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Bluetoes101 - 02-08-2025
On point 1 my take was that when the sun(/moon) leave view this is the "portal" stage, beyond the "portal" are the unknown paths the sun(/moon) then travel.
As the image shows these "4 things at outer edge" connected to what I have taken to be "portal", it seemed they might refer to the "unknown paths" and the faces may be the faces of the sun/moon respectively going along their strange and unknown paths between west and east points.
"Unknown paths beyond east/west portals"
lii. The path of the sun (De itinere solis) The sun, when
it rises, holds a path through the south. Afterward, it
goes to the west and plunges itself into the Ocean, and it
travels unknown paths under the earth, and once again
runs back to the east
It's a bit of a tricky read as Isidores words are taken from lots of people. I believe it is more of a collection of known/said/believed things than a "this is what I say it is".
For example we have this east to west then portal then unknown paths then shows up east again logic, and another paragraph explaining how some people think the milky way is so bright because the sun travels through it which would contradict other things in there, but its a some people say
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - AliaWaite - 01-02-2026
(31-07-2025, 11:45 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This seems to make sense to me, however, I know nothing about this stuff at all so offer it to those who do.I think your instinct is reasonable, even if you downplay it. Reading the diagram as a “looking up” model fits well with how premodern cosmology often worked. It was descriptive before it was technical. People described what they saw, not abstract systems. East and west as portals is a very old idea and matches daily experience. The sun disappearing into water and returning by unseen paths was widely accepted. Sky and air being interchangeable also tracks with common speech, not specialist astronomy. Ether as the star region makes sense here, especially for a general audience. By the fifteenth century, this kind of layered sky model was still familiar to non-astrologers. Simple does not automatically mean wrong.
It seemed to me once you think of the VM diagram from a "what's up?" perspective, it makes sense (given the below).
That is to say we are looking up at the sky at what we can see and can't see. It's about as simple as I've found a VM image to be, so undoubtedly it is incorrect.
My understanding is that by 14XX this was still applicable knowledge to most who were not an astrologer.
"Isidore of Seville".
From - "The cosmos and its parts"
((c. 560–636) and translated).
"Portals"
The sky has two portals: the East and the West, for the sun
enters through one portal and withdraws through the
other.
"Unknown paths beyond east/west portals"
lii. The path of the sun (De itinere solis) The sun, when
it rises, holds a path through the south. Afterward, it
goes to the west and plunges itself into the Ocean, and it
travels unknown paths under the earth, and once again
runs back to the east
"Air and then Sky (above)"
Sometimes the word ‘sky’ is used for the air, where
winds and clouds and storms and whirlwinds arise.
Lucretius (cf. On the Nature of Things 4.133):
The sky (caelum), which is called air (aer).
And the Psalm (78:2; 103:12, Vulgate) refers to “fowls of
the sky (caelum),” when it is clear that birds fly in the air;
out of habit we also call this air, ‘sky.’ Thus when we ask
whether it is fair or overcast we sometimes say, “How is
the air?” and sometimes “How is the sky?”
"Sky is where the sun and moon are"
God embellished the heaven and
filled it with bright light – that is, he adorned it with the
sun and the gleaming orb of the moon, and the glorious
constellations of glittering stars. [In a different way, it
is named from engraving (caelare) the superior bodies.]
2. It is called
L in Greek, after You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the term QY ,
that is, ‘seeing,’ because the air is transparent and clearer
for seeing. In Sacred Scripture the sky is called the firmament (firmamentum), because it is secured (firmare) by
the course of the stars and by fixed and immutable laws.
"the stars are in the ether"
The ether
(aether) is the place where the stars are, and signifies
that fire which is separated high above from the entire
world. Of course, ether is itself an element, but aethra
(i.e. another word for ether) is the radiance of ether;
it is a Greek word. 2. The sphere (sphaera) of the sky
is so named because it has a round shape in appearance. But anything of such a shape is called a sphaera
by the Greeks from its roundness, such as the balls that
children play with.
*It's not entirely certain what the firmament means in this comment (to me), so I opted for "The ether" which seemed very clear, but I suspect they mean much in the same.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Antonio García Jiménez - 01-02-2026
The interpretation of this illustration is quite simple, as I explained in another thread on the same page
It is a page that shows the astrological aspects formed by the sun and the moon, that is, the angles they form between them in their journey along the ecliptic. The astrological aspects are shown in the corners of the page. Those faces we see are a representation of the sun and the moon. At the top we see the trine and sextile, and at the bottom left the square, and on the right in the same image the opposition/conjunction.
In the central image of the page we see two suns and two moons to indicate the astrological aspects in the two celestial hemispheres.
Anyone who knows about astrology will have no problem interpreting this illustration.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Zauriek - 04-02-2026
What about the zodiac constellations?
(31-01-2026, 11:25 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Folio 60v bottom part:
And, could the faces represent the moon or a planet in a zodiac position?
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - Antonio García Jiménez - 04-02-2026
In the manuscript you attached, the small connected circles represent the signs of the zodiac. It has nothing to do with what we see in f67v2, which is a representation of the astrological relationships between the sun and the moon.
I don't want to repeat what I already said in a previous post. I just want to emphasize that this is one of the easiest pages of the Voynich to interpret. If you don't believe me, please consult an astrology book or someone interested in astrology. Amazingly, there are still people who believe in it.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - NosDa - 06-02-2026
Antonio's appeal to the authority of astrological corpus here is correct, but very humourous when combined with the desire to flatten the profession for use as an ad hominem. But anyway, I digress.
My opinion on this folio is indeed that it depicts the major astrological aspects (with diagrams for each in the corners). I am less certain about the appearance of the four planetary bodies. It seems likely to represent eclipses, nodes, or the doctrine of sect.
RE: f67v2 - Isidore of Seville - agalakhov - 06-02-2026
(01-02-2026, 10:11 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is a page that shows the astrological aspects formed by the sun and the moon, that is, the angles they form between them in their journey along the ecliptic.
(04-02-2026, 01:28 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the manuscript you attached, the small connected circles represent the signs of the zodiac. It has nothing to do with what we see in f67v2, which is a representation of the astrological relationships between the sun and the moon.
Zodiac constellations are certain positions on the ecliptic. They fit perfectly to your suggestion. And the constellations in question indeed form approximately 90 degree angles.