The Voynich Ninja
A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - Printable Version

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A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - ReneZ - 15-07-2025

Just to highlight this interesting post and give it its own thread:

(13-07-2025, 08:34 PM)magnesium Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know this is slightly off-topic, but as we're poking around digitized Swiss archives: Koen, if you haven't seen it already, this manuscript is an extremely good reference for the handwriting of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


This is not only an interesting match for the marginalia, but there are several cases of 'm' characters, especially left of the illustration, that look very similar to Voynich iin , version of Scribes 1 and/or 5.
This may seem a frivolous comparison, and I am not really suggesting that the scribe of this MS is the same as one of the scribes of the Voynich MS, but I have not seen this type of curl 'upward and backward' too often.

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - Koen G - 15-07-2025

Marco and I have also been talking about this. It's quite exceptional and not frivolous. The way they sometimes unapologetically use an 8-shape for final-s is another interesting feature that's rarer than you'd think.

It also contains the "cz" or whatever ligature.

Looking only at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia, we only found three or four manuscripts that are a slightly better or equal match. Since some of the rating is subjective, we can ignore the minor differences in score and just say that it is one of the 5 best matches.

I'm rewriting part of my VMD presentation to include this MS.

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - magnesium - 15-07-2025

I'm delighted that this manuscript is proving useful. In my cursory review of the Swiss archives, I have generally found that early 15th-century manuscripts with origins in either Zurich or Basel can yield pretty good matches, though the quality of the match varies. The distinctively angular Ls and Bs seem like a consistent tradition, and some of the other quirks, like the "cz" ligature, pop up pretty frequently. For example, see the fifth line here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - nablator - 15-07-2025

(Yesterday, 11:49 AM)magnesium Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the "cz" ligature, pop up pretty frequently. For example, see the fifth line here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

This "cz" is actually a "cꝫ", the "ꝫ" abbreviates "-et", "-est", "-ed" after a consonant (or "-us", sometimes, instead of the more usual ꝰ) , "-m" after a vowel. There is also "qꝫ" = "-que". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

f. 1r line 5 "ſcꝫ" is "scilicet".
f. 2v line 7 "graꝫ" is "gratiam"
f. 2v line 8 and 9: "ſꝫ" is "sed"

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - Koen G - 15-07-2025

(Yesterday, 11:49 AM)magnesium Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm delighted that this manuscript is proving useful. In my cursory review of the Swiss archives, I have generally found that early 15th-century manuscripts with origins in either Zurich or Basel can yield pretty good matches, though the quality of the match varies. The distinctively angular Ls and Bs seem like a consistent tradition, and some of the other quirks, like the "cz" ligature, pop up pretty frequently. For example, see the fifth line here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

When quickly scanning manuscripts, the loops are a good visual confirmation that you're probably looking at the right type of script. But like you say, there is a lot of difference within those. To be honest, Switzerland was a pretty poor scoring area in our list, which now has one outlier. For reference, the MS you just posted scores 0.47 in our system. Things get decent once over 0.60, and good over 0.65. The other MS you posted got 0.69 (double checked by Marco), which is rare.

After my VMD presentation in a couple of weeks, I will be able to say more about this, and also open up our spreadsheet for collaborative efforts.

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - MarcoP - 15-07-2025

From f.12v: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

lib[er]a nos a-malo [compare final -s with VMS "portas"]
maria porta paradysi 

   

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - LisaFaginDavis - 15-07-2025

Wow, that's a fantastic comparison!

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - Ruby Novacna - 15-07-2025

(Yesterday, 03:16 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From f.12v: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Hi Marco!
The first two words with the red initial, are "Pater noster"?

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - ReneZ - 16-07-2025

I also like the "primo" in the top margin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

   

RE: A good match, perhaps from the Zürich area... - magnesium - 16-07-2025

I also want to point out what looks to me to be a hurriedly done "am" (to start "amortuis"?) in the back half of f.4r that's reminiscent of the m/an at the beginning of "anchiton/michiton" on f116v.

[Image: PHNnhEV.png]