+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: f85v and 86(part): using the Voynich Map (/thread-4619.html)
f85v and 86(part): using the Voynich Map - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025
This is my variant of reading the map, hope you like it.
I found a variant of putting this map "onto one corner" at another source and made my own variant of it. This turns out to be the only way of correctly dealing with geographics.
I never would have used the map "balancing on a corner" otherwise. My understanding of the TO-map here was too rigid as it is not functioning as a compass for the map.
I did not care also for the 2 suns, which are the cornerposts of sunrise and sunset and clearly define the east and west tips of whole map.
I think the main problem here is to imagine any fortress or castle of western, explicitely Genuese or closely related design, being south of Asian regions or next to deserts - the more one is trying to locate the "castle" into the South-East, the bigger this problem will be.
Otherwise are Constantinople and Trapezunt some of those rare examples of a constellation were european-stamped cities did exist in oriental or middle-east environments. The Map is showing these.
Meanwhile, central-asian influence reached deeply into eastern europe. The Principality of Lithuania was stretched to west black sea coast, struggled with the Mongolian, but built relationships with Crimean Chanat. Principality of Moscow even submitted to Mongolians and had no control over south ukrainian territories. Several Genuese and Venetian outposts seamed all relevant coasts.
Central-asian dominance was much more relevant for Europe than the remains of Latin-Roman culture, so there were constellations of far-reaching contacts and strange neighborhoods.
I am setting the "castle" into the south corner.
The Map is truly not a geographical one, so I considered it as a Graph with knots, were the links between knots do NOT represent their lengths, just the connections.
These links are drawn as streets in the most cases: from (1) to (2) seems to be a narrow way, also from (2) to (T3). (T3) and (4) are connected by a street with a swallowtail wall at one side, which would be north-west flanking here. (4) to (T5) shows a really strange thing instead of a road.
(6) is linked to (T7) even with a double street, separated by a tower, uniting and being separated again by another building until the target. From (T7) leads again a street to (9), flanked by walls on both sides and these exotic "hanging" houses. (8) is not connected.
Only the "way" between (T5) and (6) looks different:
winding as a river. At this spot I will use the only word of Voynichese in this post later.
Someone wrote that the bluish roundel (marked with (1) here) might be a travel through to Black Sea, this journey starts with it for reasons i will show at last.
As a reference, this map of 1736 is most useful, I will refer to it as R1 from now on:
it mainly shows the military setttings of Russians who were slowly advancing against remaining Nogaians and the Crimea. But more important are some geographical details here which the Vms Map only provides at some spectacular points.
Even though this R1 map is ~300 years away from us and 300years later than the Vms map, it will be helpful enough.
Sailing to Black Sea's or Asow Sea's north shores, there will be found just Otchakov, Crimea, Mius, Asow and Tanais.
No Odessa, no Cherson/Dnjepr, no Mariupol, no Sewastopol of course...
Travelling to Black Sea to Northwest may lead to Otchakov or something else near the Djnepr, so I've set (2) to this region. Otchakov is a very old foundation and is still serving as military base, which may has been it's role since ancient times.
This is the reason why I concentrated onto this point:
First word reads "erekopkal", with is close to Perekop, the entrance to Crimea peninsula.
The crimtatarian name for it is Or Qapi, VMS writer obviously stayed closer to this spelling, so I took the freedom
to add a P to erekop.
I forced myself to read VMS o's as e's (which they are), but you will see the crimtatarian or(o)qapi easiest by using the P as an kyrillic R and the 8 as a K.
edit: I forget to explain the ending, (P)erekopkal means "Perekopean" and does not relate to town itself, but to the Bay east of Perekop land narrow. This kind of ending occurs quite often with VMS words.
The second word here is "Kasiopikya" or "Kasiopigya", which means without much translation "Kassiopeia"(the stars in the North).
"Perekop in the North" induces that all locations below are at Crimea or the Black Sea.
Just before Vms era, Vytautas of Lithuania has built a fortress there -- unfortunately there seem to be no remains of medieval character.
The imagery of (2) shows not really a fortress, but more of a light building, so there is no real proof for an exact position. I will return to this place later.
From (2) the course leads to North-East and (T3). I can assume that this is a short travel distance. (T3) is not bound to a town, village, harbour or any other solid place, as (T3), (T5) and (T7) have one thing in common:
they are tents.
Details of (T3), (T5) and (a bit effortlessly) (T7) are revealing the tied-down ropes and even the smokeholes at the tops. We are looking on top of tents in mongolian/tartarian style, which stayed long enough as garrison camps to be mapped in Vms, but left no historical margins in landscape.
The next stage of this travel did this even more:
this is Oleshky Sands, the biggest desert of Europe, even though it is located next to one of the greatest rivers (satellite picture/Apple Maps)
In R1 map it would be located just north of the fortress in the defence line for Kinburn peninsula. There are also several small rivers east of Dnjepr shore, two of them neighboring Oleshky Sands, which surely existed 600 years ago.
Vms map honors this unique landmark in a markless landscape with the roundel (4), the way to it is a solid street with a wall to northwest -- this line is a frontier.
At (4) the course of travel changes it's heading to east.
At this moment we can be aware of visiting the northern parts of Crimean Chanat. This will continue until (8).
East of Oleshky, right north of Perekop, we find this strange thing and thereby another landmark (image of Apple Maps):
As I understood this is a kind of saline well of naturel sourcing, it is watering to southeast into the inner sea of Crimea.
This severly reminds of that funny link of Vms between (4) and (T5) and looks like a natural compass, so I take this as confirmation of travel course.
(T5) is located at the end of this river-like "way". A moment to read with just 3 letters of TO-Voynichese I had introduced earlier. Both upper words are still a compettiion, "gg22…" will be a struggle.
But the third word "8al8a2" is reading "Kalka(t)".
The Kalka river is known by a pivoting fight 200 years before the Vms, the battle of Kalka between Mongols and Kievan Rus'. Today there are existing 2 rivers, Kalkich and Kalmius, and it is unclear which one is the former "Kalka"; thats not quite a difference, as both join just before mouthing into Asow sea.
A look to R1 map shows: there is a "Kalce" and a "Kalmiusse" noted, so I take Kalce as Kalka here. Kalka flows from west-north-west to east-south-east so the way of this river continues the path to east.
By the way, "Kal" is not a creation of Voynichese, this means "dirt" or "mud" in some slavic languages -- Kalchik means "dirty river", the core of all three names comes probably from eroding the black soil of Ukraine.
Together with "Perekop", this defined the regional span of VMS map.
Where Kalmius and Kalchik meet is the location of todays Mariupol. This city was founded end of 18th century upon the rest of a crimtatarian tent camp named Kalmius; no doubt this was completely driven down the river during the campaign of the russians years before.
(T6) is a strange location: apart from all other heavily commented roundels, this one has just 1 word in his inner circle. The symbols of imaging are tending towards "water", so this might be Asov also, but could be the empty location of Mariupol. Today this is an industry city, there is no option of imagining this location around 1400AD.
Funny enough, here are indeed 2 way of travelling back to Crimea: one leads back at the coast to it (and is breaking the general direction of going southwest from (6) to (T7) a bit), the second way leads to this target via Kuban/Kertch. Nethertheless, (T7) may be located on eastern Crimea again.
Right here we can resume that Vms is a travel map to all cornerstones of the Crimean Chanat.
Regarding this, (8) is the center of this Empire, meaning that is Qufut Kale or Bakhchassaray in it's foundation years (isnt that a tent cloth above these pillars or towers?). Qufut Kale was given up soon, Bakhchassaray is still mentioned 1736 in R1. The capital is linked to (T3,T5,T7) and the "Black Sea", and only to these, by "streams"
These may be supplies, food, soldiers, money, orders, prayers, whatever -- but surely no Volcano eruptions. This is the only abstract part in whole map: all other items are quite real.
(9) is the remaining highlight, it is also mentioned in R1, already under the name "Makura" -- it had different names before.
(9), "the castle" appears to be Fortress Mangup, for a short time during Vms period known as "Theodoro", capital of Principality Theodoro. It's ancient name was "Doro". (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
Mangup lies southwest of Bakhchassaray/Qufut Kale, upon this claw-like hill:
Please watch high resolution pictures at this source below, it is worthy it:
(all pictures from source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
Sagqs, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons
Mangup Citadel is located in east of the fortification:
The "fingers" of Mangups natural fortress resembled?
White ridges of Mangups southside.
Mangup had 2 wells and a maingate at west of fortress, nr.1 +2 at sign:
I could not find out what this structure is, but we know it already:
Leaving Mangup heading north to (2), foto is Google Streetview: these cliffs are blue waves.
There is a cave system within the northeast finger of Mangup:
Leaving Mangup to Northwest may even lead to forests and hills west of Bakhchassaray and further to Perekop and the next knots. (1) may show these hills and forests alternatively, but whithin the circle seem several bays to be drawn, so it is most probably the waterway.
(2) may also be located south of Dnjepr mouth since I am not sure about the extension of Crimean Chanat during it's early years.
The Vms Map and at least the "herbs" section seem to be a kind of Almanach made for educational either to instruct traders for their ways and best goods, or for medical staff to prepare garrison visits.
What are the conclusions of Vms Map, and what are not?
- the number of details urgently suggests the "castle" is Mangup/Theodoro
- all nomadic positions and No.6 probably completely dispeared without any archaeological trace
- in Bakkchassararay and Oshtakiv me be some traces of ~1460AD remained
- there is no political or geographical link to western Europe, apart from some fortress designs
- the very present Genuese locations are not mentioned, but this does not exclude them from being the producer of this map ("mapping the neighors")
- there are no religious contents
- there is no hint that Voynichese alphabet or language is anyhow related to crimtatarian language, but this is not excluding them from being the producer of this map ("mapping ourselves and the closest neighbor")
- Vms map shows Mangup most detailed; this does not induce that they were the producers of this map, but makes it more probable.
- revealing the Vms Map as a mainframe of upcoming Crimean Chanat does not limit the whole manuscript to Crimea or even the map drawn there at all-- production of Vms has happened somewhere between Ladoga Sea and Black Sea, not necessarily on the peninsula.
- Mangup East citadel was ready in the 1460ies earliest, but is imaged in the Map; Pr. of Theodoro got lost at 1475 by turkish-ottoman invasion. Seeing the manuscript as dominated by kyrillic and slavic components, it is possibly not produced under turkish occupation after 1475 upon Crimea and a production somewhere else may have been senseless and somehow nostalgic also. This tightens the time frame for production to a few years before 1475AD.
- the bases of Voynich alphabet and language are NOT Latin
AEA-KVA in shortest form - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025
For those who wonder why I "read" three words of Voynich Map (here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ),
this is my method and just a minimum of characters:
As in nearly all medieval TO-wheels, in both of the written VMS-TOs there are the names of Africa, Europe and Asia contained.
By crossreferencing these letters and an appearance of "Africa" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is a solid stock of letters in kyrillic, more or less solid to use:
And this is all that's ever to be computed, "processed" or "decoded about VMS letters -- I am still convinced they are not encrypted at all.
Only the target language is a problem.
edit: ok, this was as bit too short, to be more exact, there are the words efrikal, eropalikye and asial, which mean „african“, „european“ and „asian“.
About the L:
this following here is an example that existing languages may use an L in all words:
By the way, Usbekian is said to be the follower language of Mongols and Nogaians who retreated to east later, but this is not a proof VMS language being usbekian.
An L is not to be excluded since VMS language is 600 years old and still unknown.
You find ot**8a also in the third image of heading picture, without an L. /edit
(at mods: this is, promised, my last try to publish here. I've seen your "new law" about solutions, but could not bundle this information here with explanations about VMS map there, as it would drown. I hope you can leave this short entry "stand-alone" here, as I may refer to it later out of other category postings. Thanks)
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - oshfdk - 14-04-2025
What is your reason for reading EVA-l as L here? As far as I can see, reading this as L serves no purpose in any of these words. There is no L in Europa, Asia or Africa.
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - ReneZ - 14-04-2025
This is not bad, but it all fails when you try to read the rest of the MS using this table.
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025
(14-04-2025, 04:22 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is your reason for reading EVA-l as L here? As far as I can see, reading this as L serves no purpose in any of these words. There is no L in Europa, Asia or Africa.
This is not using EVA, it is dumping it. EVA never worked at all.
If so, what valid words did it ever produce?
Which single letters are confirmed and how?
Who ever „agreed upon EVA“, and why?
The only undoubted letter of EVA ist the „a“, anything else is crap and I have a reason why this above is called AEA-KVA — it is just generic from VMS, no „looks-like“ and „could-be‘s“.
If EVA never worked at all, just trash it and forget it.
I added the rest of my answer to the posting as it was a good question, I used a too simplified picture. I may change it later.
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - oshfdk - 14-04-2025
(14-04-2025, 04:59 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is not using EVA, it is dumping it. EVA never worked at all.
If so, what valid words did it ever produce?
Which single letters are confirmed and how?
Who ever „agreed upon EVA“, and why?
EVA is a transliteration alphabet made in a way to allow easy pronunciation of Voynichese glyph sequences. EVA was never intended to represent sounds of some underlying language, as far as I know.
I don't find your argument convincing, translating "European", "African" and "Asian" (instead of Europe/Europa, etc.) to Uzbek doesn't show any ground for interpreting EVA-L as L to me. In Uzbek this is clearly a universal suffix -lik, similar to -ean/-an in English, there is no shared suffix in these Voynichese words. Overall, you mapping looks very patchy. I think it's a pity given that you started with a very solid argument regarding high likelihood of Europe/Africa/Asia having these or similar pronunciations for a wide range of possible underlying languages.
RE: f85v and 86(part): using the Voynich Map - Bluetoes101 - 14-04-2025
EVA is labels added to stuff so we can communicate. It's not trying to do any of the things you think it failed at.
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025
(14-04-2025, 05:31 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EVA is a transliteration alphabet made in a way to allow easy pronunciation of Voynichese glyph sequences. EVA was never intended to represent sounds of some underlying language, as far as I know.
I don't find your argument convincing, translating "European", "African" and "Asian" (instead of Europe/Europa, etc.) to Uzbek doesn't show any ground for interpreting EVA-L as L to me. In Uzbek this is clearly a universal suffix -lik, similar to -ean/-an in English, there is no shared suffix in these Voynichese words. Overall, you mapping looks very patchy. I think it's a pity given that you started with a very solid argument regarding high likelihood of Europe/Africa/Asia having these or similar pronunciations for a wide range of possible underlying languages.
What is EVA transliterating, and where to? Some people here talk about „reading in EVA“, but there are no words like daiiin in any language.
Better?
Again: today‘s Slavic languages, and most other, have very few to do with the conditions of 1450AD. Russian, Belarussian, Ukrainian etc. just began to develop faster in 14/15thCt.
Bulgarian was a bit advanced.
The eastern european language sphere consisted of Old East Slavic, Ruthenian and Old Russian when VMS was written.
Any exclusions like „there is no language with L at Africa“ are completely senseless, as VMS language is at least 600 years old and there may haven even X and O’s in it, which we cant know.
The examples with Usbekian and Bulgarian are far away from any VMS wording. It is useless to set every VMS letter 1:1 to modern words.
Only „old“ words which may have been in use for hundreds of years like „wall“ , „dog“, „fire“ „wood“ or something may have had the chance to „survive“ until today nearly unchanged.
By the way, you can find an L-less Africa in the 3rd image of the heading picture above. So „Efrika“ and „Eropya“ are with us and dont show an L.
RE: f85v and 86(part): using the Voynich Map - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 14-04-2025
(14-04-2025, 05:36 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.EVA is labels added to stuff so we can communicate. It's not trying to do any of the things you think it failed at.
Sorry, this is clearly assigning letters to VMS characters, even capital letters.
Such table is not helpful, but most irritating as it fixes the reader to visual conventions and lead to nowhere. Means, even if you „know“ there is some completely different VMS symbol behind, you are getting locked in an „understanding“ and „usage“ of all the little d‘s, e‘s, o‘s etc., which they aren‘t.
And there are no such things as capital letters in VMS.
RE: AEA-KVA in shortest form - oshfdk - 14-04-2025
(14-04-2025, 05:48 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Better?
No, this is even worse. Converting gibberish to English using Google Translate doesn't validate the gibberish. Unless you can show any of the words that you feed to Google Translate in any historical records, these remain just made up gibberish.