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+--- Thread: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? (/thread-3904.html)
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - pfeaster - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 02:27 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene, you could form an opinion about my work by visiting my blog and not based on someone else's opinion. What Patrick Feaster wrote did not come from my blog, he wrote it on his own, probably thinking he copied it correctly.
I see that I did make one glaring mistake: τῶν is the genitive plural definite article, and I clumsily confused it with τόν -- my Ancient Greek professor of thirty-two years ago would be so disappointed! Still, the point about agreement in case, gender, and number stands: daiin.chedy = τῶν ϝέτος (genitive plural "the" + nominative singular "year").
Here are the two entries clipped verbatim from your You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. corresponding to the pair of items Rene cited:
So perhaps you weren't meaning to identify [aiin] with the word οὖν, but only with its rare Doric dialectal variant ὦν -- a bit like the distinction between ϝέτος (or "γετος") and ἔτος? My initial assumption was that you were suggesting ων as a kind of hypothetical "bridge" between your transcription [aun] and οὖν.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 04:11 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My initial assumption was that you were suggesting ων as a kind of hypothetical "bridge" between your transcription [aun] and οὖν.Patrick, I am not in a position to suggest anything in Greek, as I have never learned it. I am looking in the dictionary for words that may match the words in our manuscript. I am currently at this first stage and I am not yet ready to go to the next stage, to be able to read a paragraph with correct word agreement.
By the way, your example daiin.chedy only proves that the word chedy can have other meanings. I already have some ideas that I will put on my word list, which I update regularly.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - ReneZ - 19-12-2022
I just picked an easy example, but I could also have picked chedy and shedy, which differ by only a
curl above the first letter, whereas in the proposed Greek translation they are totally different:
Quote:1. chedy = *γέτος = ϝέτος, variant of ἔτος,
2. shedy = σχέδη (or Latin scheda),
This was also just to demonstrate the enormous freedom in selecting Greek equivalents of Voynich characters.
This was also very clearly demonstrated by @nablator:
Quote:q = δ
d = θ/τ/δ
s = σ/ς/ζ
a = α/αι
e = ε/ι/ω/αι
o = ο/α
ee = υ/αι
al = αλ/αι
ol = α/αλ/αι
y = ε/η/αι/ης/ος/ως
ch = γ/κ/ϝ
Sh = κ/σκ/σχ
k = ν/μ
n = ν
which is even more freedom than I expected.
To clarify: when I wrote: "not fundamentally different" from simple substitution, I still consider this to be "not fundamentally different". Individual cipher text letters are replaced by individual plain text letters, consontants (seem to) remain consonants and vowels vowels. There is a lot of freedom to play with.
That is clearly necessary in order to be able to match more words.
An alternative 'method' used by many people with a proposed solution, is to allow oneself to select words from several different languages. In this case: several different dialects.
Rather than translating Voynichese to Greek, in my opinion this is more like projecting Voynichese onto Greek.
I write all this without any animosity or negative feelings towards Ruby, of course. This is just my honest opinion, in response to the question whether it can be demonstrated that the Voynich MS text is not (ancient) Greek.
In my further opinion, the problem is not the language, but the method. Voynichese is so far removed from all European languages, that a very similar method would be required to match Voynichese to any of these.
In other words: as soon as anyone finds a method to bring Voynichese closer to Latin, the same method will also bring it closer to German, Italian, etc.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 21-12-2022
(13-12-2022, 09:54 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After all, Greek was spoken in Anatolia, where Slavic language was a second language, and Greek was spoken in parts of Slovenia after the Roman Empire was divided. Greek and Latin was taught at schools up to the Second World War.Indeed, the fact of recognising Greek, Slavic and Turkish words in the same text is not surprising, professional linguists could explain this better than I could.
What delays the final reading of our text is, in my opinion, the difference in the alphabets used and the difference in the presentation of the results.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 29-12-2022
My list has just reached 600 words, mostly Greek.
Surely it's time to move on to the next stage and try to read at least the fragments of the sentences.
I count on you to help me find the best way to present them.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 30-12-2022
I tried to put together in a table the words of a single line with my reading and the possible meanings, which resulted in a rather large table, difficult to handle. Whether I place the line horizontally or vertically, the whole remains too large to be able to embrace it with a single glance.
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 04-01-2023
Since I cannot read a whole sentence already, I try to read the two words qokain.chckhy which occur together 5 times on pages 75r, 76r and 77r.
If qokain is the infinitive δονειν of δονεω and chckhy is an adjective κενεος, how do we read them together, should we translate an infinitive as the infinitive or as the noun?
If δονεω means: to shake, to disturb, to terrify, to agitate, to wheel, to murmur and κενεος: empty, fruitless, void, devoid of wit, vain, pretentious, the whole thing would be "in order to disturb (those/those) who are devoid of wit" or "a vain agitation" or perhaps "a fruitless murmur"?
Do you know the correct way to translate infinitives from ancient Greek?
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 06-01-2023
Can we read the words shokain.chy on page 75r as "σκανειν γας" for " You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."?
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Ruby Novacna - 08-01-2023
Another attempt at a compact presentation:
<f116r.31,+P0;H>
pchal!larar. al. ckhal. rai!n. alol!fchy. rpchey. shfy.ches.ar.opche!kan. dlr
pha(i)larar(1) ai(260) kna(i)(4) rain(26) alafh9(1) rphe9(1) ophinan(1) 8ir(1)
φαλαρας αι κνα ρειν αλοιφη σφεος αφενον τις
spotted with if scratches to pour unguent your wealth
white
Or with the dots as separation:
<f116r.31,+P0;H>
pchal!larar.al.ckhal.rai!n.alol!fchy.rpchey.shfy.ches.ar.opche!kan.dlr
pha(i)larar(1).ai(260).kna(i)(4).rain(26).alafh9(1).rphe9(1).ophinan(1).8ir(1)
φαλαρας.αι.κνα.ρειν.αλοιφη.σφεος.?.?.?.αφενον.τις
spotted with white.if.scratches.to pour.unguent.your.?.?.?.wealth.?
Is there anything missing, in your view?
RE: How to prove that the B-language is not Greek? - Aga Tentakulus - 08-01-2023
Let me put it this way.
Your text, even if the words are in English, cannot be translated into German as a sentence. I can't read it like that.
Even if the words are not directly correct in their form, they should still tell a comprehensible story.
Since it is f116, perhaps the story should be in the field of medicine.
I don't think they are prescriptions, I think they are instructions on how to treat a disease. I just can't find any quantities for recipes. At least, they are not visible in this way.