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+--- Thread: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. (/thread-3258.html)
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Ruby Novacna - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 10:27 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Most people start fudgingAbout "fudging", flip through old dictionaries, you can change your mind. Also leaf through the translations of the old inscriptions, the freedom of transcription is sometimes wider than in the case of Voynich. Sometimes it's not the lack of ideas, but the extreme level of our self-censorship that keeps us from moving forward. Anyway, my motto has always been "translate and let translate". This work must above all serve the self-fulfillment of each participant.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 09:12 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally, I don’t see many ways to encrypt a separate word.
I can imagine quite a number. For the simplest example, one may substitute not single letters but, say, bigrams. Take the word "date", if "da" maps to "po" and "te" maps to "lo", then "date" maps to "polo", and there's no 1:1 mapping between single characters (instead, it exists for bigrams). The decipherer would in vain consider the two "o" characters to be the same.
For a more complex example, there is my idea expressed in another thread about prefixes as relational operators, like "otol" meaning something being made over "tol", for example otol = "with tol", while qotol = "without tol". (There are many labels starting with "o", but very few starting with "qo"). This idea still remains unexplored.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 10:02 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We must not discourage each other. The choice must come from within.
It's not meant as discouragement, but rather an advice, because simple substitution is really incompatible with many peculiarities of Voynichese, starting with entropy and ending with some almost unexplored things such as curve-line or gallows coverage.
But I don't think anyone of Voynich researchers can be discouraged! For me, it's perfect that everyone has their own way, and on every way there may still be useful results and unexpected findings.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Searcher - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 01:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. For the simplest example, one may substitute not single letters but, say, bigrams. Take the word "date", if "da" maps to "po" and "te" maps to "lo", then "date" maps to "polo", and there's no 1:1 mapping between single characters (instead, it exists for bigrams). The decipherer would in vain consider the two "o" characters to be the same.Thanks, Anton! I missed this method for the case. I am sure to try it. And I forgot to mention abjad, as well. I just want to develop a thought about bigrams. Indeed, bigrams can stand not only for another bigram, some bigrams may stand for some combination of three letters. I think, it is possible.
Observations show it is doubtful that the main text is enciphered with simple substitution cipher, although we don't know whether the labels and the text enciphered with the same system.
Quote:For a more complex example, there is my idea expressed in another thread about prefixes as relational operators, like "otol" meaning something being made over "tol", for example otol = "with tol", while qotol = "without tol". (There are many labels starting with "o", but very few starting with "qo"). This idea still remains unexplored.The idea is probably good, but in this case the label words seem to be too short (although, of course, it depends on language). Also there is a question: What with such words as ol, or, ot, etc?
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
I'm not advocating any particular proposal here, just wanted to show that possibilities can be many.
(27-06-2020, 03:32 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also there is a question: What with such words as ol, or, ot, etc?
One possibility is that ol is something different from tol, i.e. they are semantically unrelated.
In fact, the frequent approach to the Voynich analysis is to take it for granted that vords built around the same "core" are semantically related, like in a natural language words descending from the same root are semantically related. For example, "underworld" and "worldly" ar semantically related to "world". However, it's not at all known if that is true for Voynichese, and if so, then to what extent. I won't be surprised if that's not the case at all, and there are no "roots" in the linguistical sense of the word. What's suspisious is that many vords are built around just a few basic bigrams formed by a few Voynichese glyphs, mostly "a", "o", "l" and "r", sometimes also around tri- or quad-grams ending with in/ir or iin/iir (in some transcription alphabets those would be bigrams also) in the curve-line fashion (see Cham 2015), and then these are enwrapped with prefixes like "ch" or "d" and suffixes like "y", also in the curve-line fashion. This does not have strong feel of semantics-driven morphology - or, I should say, "natural-language-semantics-driven".
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Searcher - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 04:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not advocating any particular proposal here, just wanted to show that possibilities can be many.I don't mean this.
(27-06-2020, 03:32 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also there is a question: What with such words as ol, or, ot, etc?One possibility is that ol is something different from tol, i.e. they are semantically unrelated.
You wrote:
Quote:about prefixes as relational operators, like "otol" meaning something being made over "tol", for example otol = "with tol"So "o" is such an operator in every VMs word that contains it at the beginning? Therefore I asked what about the words ol, ot, or, etc. Is "o" in them an operator? If not, how to identify words where "o" is a prefix that plays role of a preposition or a conjunction, for example, and where it is just a letter or just a prefix? And... not too many such prefixes / conjunctions / prepositions?
I like more the "bigrams" variant mentioned by you.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 04:55 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Therefore I asked what about the words ol, ot, or, etc. Is "o" in them an operator
I think it would not be, since, as I said, they appear to be kinda "core" bigrams.
(27-06-2020, 04:55 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If not, how to identify words where "o" is a prefix that plays role of a preposition or a conjunction, for example, and where it is just a letter or just a prefix?
That may be not that complex.
There are (ref. VQP) 8558 vords starting with "o", i.e. "o*" wildcard (neglecting standalone "o")
Of those:
2417 are ot*
2474 are ok*
360 are op*
240 are od*
89 are of*
(these are pre-gallows and pre-d), the subtotal is 5580 or 65%. I'd say these are all operators.
Next, there are:
1069 ol*
244 or*
538 ol (just two-character vord)
366 or (just two-character vord)
the subtotal is 2217, or 26%
I guess that ol* and or* are composites here, - in other words, "o" is not an operator here.
What remains are 661 occurrences, such as 173 oc*, 132 oe* etc.
So my first guess would be that every vord-starting o beyond that in basic bigrams ol and or is a relational operator.
If we leave the particular relatonal prefix theory and instead consider o as some specific marker (which is a more "generalized" approach), the above considerations would still hold.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
Note that what distinguishes ol and or from all other combinations mentioned above is that these two bigrams cointain the curve-line boundary within.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - -JKP- - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 04:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm not advocating any particular proposal here, just wanted to show that possibilities can be many.
(27-06-2020, 03:32 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Also there is a question: What with such words as ol, or, ot, etc?
One possibility is that ol is something different from tol, i.e. they are semantically unrelated.
In fact, the frequent approach to the Voynich analysis is to take it for granted that vords built around the same "core" are semantically related, like in a natural language words descending from the same root are semantically related...
Thank you for saying this, Anton. I think this is frequently overlooked. It's especially important to consider the possibility because medieval script, in particular, was very context dependent. The same character or group of characters had many meanings, depending on which other characters were adjacent.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 06:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's especially important to consider the possibility because medieval script, in particular, was very context dependent. The same character or group of characters had many meanings, depending on which other characters were adjacent.
Yes, but in fact that's not what I was thinking of. Rather of this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote: In my understanding, all these hints point towards Voynichese words being `numbers' rather than linguistic entities.