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+--- Thread: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. (/thread-3258.html)
Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Searcher - 26-06-2020
Hi!
I want to share my experiments with you. I wrote earlier that the VMs “word” otol (otol) is interesting for me, as it is a label for a few different illustrations in different sections of the manuscript. In particular, it appears in the “cosmological” section, in the “anatomy”-section and in the “small plants”-section (f102v2). From time to time, I try to choose words in different languages for this word. There were many approaches, but I want to write about two of them, as I count them the most interesting. Perhaps, trying to find a correct meaning for the label, we will find a solution. I'm not sure, but I hope so.
The first experiment is based on Greek language approach. I promised to write about this recently. I must say that I don’t have unique interpretation for this, as this is just an experiment. I don’t know Greek, so I just play with substitutions. Conditions: if it is a separate lable, I take it for a separate word.
Fortunately, this word contains only three characters: o, t and l.
Substitution # 1:
o = o
t = p
l = s
We’ll get the Greek word opos. In Latin transliteration it may mean:
1)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – as, like (adv.)
2)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – such as, just as, etc. (adv.) (see the link)
3)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – juice, plant/vegetable juice; fig-juice (noun)
The most interesting interpretation is, of course, “juice”. I don’t say it is ideal, but it marks some parts of the “anatomical”-like pipes on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f77v, besides almost every page (at least, the most of them) of the herbal section contains at least one otol. While I don’t imagine what it can mean, as an inscription to a star on f68r1.
Substitution # 2:
o = o
t = r
l = s
In Latin transliteration, it is oros, that can be:
1)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – limit, boundary, term, end, aim, etc. (noun)
2)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – a mountain, hill, section, etc. (noun)
3)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – serum, pus (noun). Old dictionaries also give such definitions, as whey, serum of blood.
As for me, this result is even more interesting, as these words may be used in all those sections of the VMs. Nevertheless, I made one more substitution.
Substitution # 3:
o = o
t = l
l = s
Latin transliteration: olos, in Greek may be:
1)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – whole, entire, absolute, generally, actually, etc. (noun)
2)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. – whole, entire, all (not Ancient Greek noun)
3)[font=Times New Roman] [/font]ὅλος – muddy liquid (noun) (it is noted in some dictionaries)
Unfortunately, I can’t find a solution working with the main text. First of all, I don’t know Greek and Ancient Greek, and I couldn’t find a proper Greek word for the most part of the VMs words that contain [-otol-] in itself.
The second experiment was absolutely accidental. It led me to Hungarian language, also interesting one, to the point. I used only one way of substitution:
o = e
t = r
l = k
With this, we’ll get “erek”. In Hungarian it means “veins” or “streamlets” (nom.plur.). Undoubtedly, this result got me interested. And I was greatly surprised how many words with the same repeated vowel (from two to four times) can be found in this language. Thus, otol, okol, orol, ofol, opol, ochol, odol could be erek (veins), elek (edges; I live), evek (years), egek (heavens), etc. Nevertheless, I can’t say that this substitution really works in the main text, at least, for me.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Ruby Novacna - 26-06-2020
It remains to check on longer words for a quick response.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Anton - 26-06-2020
Yes, otol is a very interesting vord. I call this the "otol test" - to find the interpretation of otol that would consistently fit.
With substituion, you can immediately test for tol as well, it's about half as frequent a vord as otol, and it's found at paragraph start 9 times.
But, frankly, simple substitution is just a road to nowhere
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - -JKP- - 27-06-2020
(26-06-2020, 11:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
But, frankly, simple substitution is just a road to nowhere
Yep.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - RenegadeHealer - 27-06-2020
I agree that the vord otol is a tantalizing possibility for exploring as a possible Rosetta Stone, substitution cipher or not. Even if this is a more complex sort of cipher or a conlang, the things bearing this label and highly similar ones like tol might be found to have something in common, which gives us a clue to as to which glyphs signify which units of meaning. Of course, even if the script seems highly logically designed, it doesn't follow that the code or conlang maps the territory it describes in a very logical and straightforward fashion. I hold out some hope that this could be the case, I'll be honest. But expecting anything about the VMs to follow in a predictable and logical fashion is asking far too much, especially given the possibility that the VMs was designed to hide information and confuse the curious.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - -JKP- - 27-06-2020
That's why I created a concordance of every token in the manuscript. To see if there were patterns.
The only significant one I found was that ch-tokens are a little more common in the plant section, t-tokens in the zodiac section.
I did not find anything that indicated hot/cold/wet/dry for specific plants (as was common in medieval herbals) or any of the numerous other classification systems that were common in the Middle Ages. Some of them almost looked like they might work, but there was never a complete set.
I didn't find patterns that might indicate leaf patterns or flower pattern, or habitat, or growth morphology amongst similar drawings.
I really expected to find something (assuming the drawings are somehow related to the text, and that the tokens are discrete words and that the content is linguistic). All it did was confirm my initial impression from years earlier that individual tokens are probably not linguistic.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - -JKP- - 27-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 03:53 AM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
But expecting anything about the VMs to follow in a predictable and logical fashion is asking far too much, especially given the possibility that the VMs was designed to hide information and confuse the curious.
It is actually quite predictable. Not in the sense of being able to predict the next token (although Torsten has a few important things to say about that), but in terms of predicting the uniqueness or otherwise for a token.
After inputting a few folios into my transcript, I could predict, with about 70% accuracy, whether the next token was a new one or one that had already been used. This was not based on memory (I can't memorize that kind of thing), it was based on the construction of the token.
But this, by itself, doesn't mean it's meaningful, only that there are common patterns.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Searcher - 27-06-2020
(26-06-2020, 11:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, otol is a very interesting vord. I call this the "otol test" - to find the interpretation of otol that would consistently fit.Of course, we can try different ways of disassembling a word in order to get any meaning that could somehow be consistent with the illustration to it. Personally, I don’t see many ways to encrypt a separate word. Only three options come to my mind: a simple substitution in a language other than the language of the main text; substitution with abbreviations; invented language in general. Otol is a rather short word and contains a repeating glyph, which seems to help in faster identification. Verification can be done using two other label words (otal, okol, as well as the adjacent word otorol, etc.).
With substituion, you can immediately test for tol as well, it's about half as frequent a vord as otol, and it's found at paragraph start 9 times.
But, frankly, simple substitution is just a road to nowhere
I will also try the substitutional method with abbreviations. What methods with separate words can be used yet?
As for tol, as pos, it can be interpreted:
1. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - In any way, at all, by any means; In a certain way.
2. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - how?, in what way?
Also ol in this case - os:
1.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (particle) (see the link)
2. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (conjunction and adverb) (see the link - too many meanings)
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - Ruby Novacna - 27-06-2020
(26-06-2020, 11:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But, frankly, simple substitution is just a road to nowhereUnlike the path you've taken? Did you get anywhere?
We must not discourage each other. The choice must come from within.
It’s our privilege to let our imagination run wild.
RE: Experiments with interpretation of the labels. The label otol. - -JKP- - 27-06-2020
Ruby, simple substitution is not letting the imagination run wild. It's the first and most obvious thing that most people try. Look at all the Voynich "solutions" that have been posted in the last few years.
- Almost every one of them is a substitution solution.
- Almost every one of them uses the vowel shapes loosely to stand for whichever vowel they need.
- Almost every one of them turns the "c" shape into a vowel (usually "e").
- Almost every one of them uses the same approach but says it's a different language (Latin, Greek, Indian, Spanish, Portuguese, "proto-Romance", Arabic, Czech, Turkish, Hebrew, Nahuatl, etc.).
- Most people are quite convinced that they chose the right method and the right language and yet they can't all be right because they contradict each other.
- Most people start fudging, either by anagramming or by proposing that the tokens are in different languages, but these are usually subjective adjustments and often lead to one-way ciphers.
- For the most part, the solvers cannot get their method to work on a full paragraph.
- The "solutions" almost universally contain no grammar or very questionable subjective attempts at injecting grammar.