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+--- Thread: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model (/thread-3153.html)
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RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - Mark Knowles - 10-04-2020
For me the idea of isolating a percentage of Voynichese that does not satisfy a lot of the common features that are cited as structural features of the language would be interesting. It is probably the case that it is the same subset of words that don't fit with core-mantle-crust as don't fit with the observations about glyph pair entropy as also don't fit with the curve-line system as don't fit with various other commonly discussed "properties" of Voynichise. When one talks about notions like auto-copying we are talking about an alleged common feature, but not a Universal feature. My sense is that we rarely talk about universal phenomenon when it comes to Voynichese as I get the impression that in most cases of a property we can find Voynichese words that are counter examples. Obviously given my line of thinking I am most interested in the Voynichese words that do not fit these patterns as I think they are probably where the meaning lies.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - ReneZ - 11-04-2020
(10-04-2020, 09:28 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.96.3% of all types or all tokens
Of all word tokens. (*)
The details are here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of 35,128 word tokens in the transliteration used by Stolfi, 1301 are called 'abnormal'.
The rest follow the grammar.
The abnormal words (just like the normal words) are further classified into different groups.
These include such cases as 'Grove words' (normal words preceded by an extra Gallows), 'multicore' words (that have several cores, i.e. more than one gallows), etc.
- - -
Note (*):
The total word tokens in the MS is probably in the range 37,000 - 39,000 while the total number of word types is more like 9000 - 10,000
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - DONJCH - 11-04-2020
(10-04-2020, 10:02 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am most interested in the Voynichese words that do not fit these patterns as I think they are probably where the meaning lies.I'm with you so far but it's so hard to follow all this due to all the thread splits with no cross links between them.
Or perhaps I am doing it wrong? It's quite possible that there is something really obvious and basic that I am doing wrong.
On that subject, there have been some really interesting and useful diagrams and pictures published here in the last few weeks - like Marco's Core-Mantl-Crust, Koens Containers, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quarters montage - but do you think I can FIND them again?! Maybe but not easily.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - Koen G - 11-04-2020
Marco's core-mantle-crust diagram is in the core-mantle-crust thread
So I don't agree thay splitting makes things harder to find. If I didn't split, the Stolfi posts would soon be buried and forgotten in Mark's thread.
Apart from that, the problem you mention is a real one. That comes with the forum format, and I don't quite see how it can be helped.
I once tried to work with curated threads, where I would collect the results of discussion threads in a locked subforum. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It hasn't been used since 2018. Still I'm very happy with the way these threads turned out. But I quit doing it since I felt like I was the only one really interested in it (even though people like JKP and Marco and Vviews provided a lot of input in the discussion threads).
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - Lordadef - 11-04-2020
Stolfi would be a nice guy to be interviewed, btw. I know he is off the Voynich subject for quite a while now, but still he would surely provide us an interesting interview.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - Koen G - 11-04-2020
(11-04-2020, 09:29 AM)Lordadef Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stolfi would be a nice guy to be interviewed, btw. I know he is off the Voynich subject for quite a while now, but still he would surely provide us an interesting interview.Definitely. It's a shame he hasn't commented on the VM in a long time, otherwise there would be a specific occasion. But apart from Touwaide-who-ignores-my-mails, Stolfi is at the top of my list.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - MarcoP - 11-04-2020
(10-04-2020, 04:32 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Am I the only one who finds it counter-intuitive to think of gallows as "core"? They feel much more fronted, I would probably put them in the front-part of the mantle. And then there is no core...
Hi Koen,
how would you parse the sample word qochepchody corresponding to the graph I posted?
The function of the mantle-core-mantle structure is to model how gallows (core) can be both preceded and followed by bench/e sequences (mantle). Of course, it is more frequent for the bench/e mantle to appear after the gallows as in 'qokeedy', but 'sheky' and 'cheky' total about 100 occurrences and they defintely look like legal words.
Counts for the various combinations can be found in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (The Mantle Layer paragraph).
Words with both mantles are relatively rare, but frequent enough to look valid. The most common one might be 'chkeey' (13 occurrences, according to Voynichese.com).
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - DONJCH - 11-04-2020
(11-04-2020, 08:23 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't quite see how it can be helped.Wasn't there an automatic link back to the original thread at one point a year or two ago? Disabled for some technical reason I think.
I don't know how difficult it would be to do manually but it could be really useful.
Look, it's ungrateful of me to bring this up I know, the editors all do a good job, it's difficult to be a mod too, I am grateful for all that you do. I am only trying to offer a constructive suggestion for improvement.
I think your curated subforum was a good idea, maybe some of the recent pictures/diagrams are worth a place in there? I should have said also, just about all of JKP's visuals are a tour de force and a great resource.
There was a time a couple of years ago when I was up with most everything that had been written on the forum, but I it seems to be leaking out faster than it goes in these days.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - Koen G - 12-04-2020
Hi Marco
I must admit that the paradigm does work if you consider all legal word forms. In fact, "curve" glyphs before gallows are more common than I thought.
Even gallows at the ends of words are more common than I thought. And they are somewhat consistent, with words like [chok] and [qot] appearing multiple times.
RE: [split] Stolfi's Core-mantle-crust model - -JKP- - 12-04-2020
I still haven't had a chance to read the darned thing. Hopefully I can in the next couple of days.