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+--- Thread: 9 Rosette - Specific Details (/thread-2952.html)
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - -JKP- - 05-10-2019
(05-10-2019, 03:30 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-10-2019, 12:36 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, I know you've been working on this in a dedicated way and you are also honest about crediting which parts of the ideas you got from Nick. I have no doubt you are really trying to solve it, not just trying to get something published that makes it look like you're ahead of the pack (which is the impression I get from this paper which seems superficial and which credits a lot of out-of-date sources and none of the recent ones).
Not sure what you consider recent, and I can see some of the points you made in your review, but do remember, Jeurgen's paper is from early 2014, it could not include more recent info than that.
I don't think this forum was here yet, the old ones hadn't yet been archived, it didn't seem very easy to find voynich info if you came into it new around that time, as i did later the same year.
I found the paper interesting enough, maybe my almost complete lack of voynich knowledge at the time coloured my view of it, but i still consider it of interest, and his other papers too.
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I didn't know it was that old. There's no date anywhere on the paper and I looked all over academia.edu for a date and didn't see one.
Then some of my comments don't necessarily apply. I have no idea when Diane posted her analysis of the "map" folio or what she had said by 2014 (and I still haven't seen her analysis of the map).
I also don't know when people originally connected the folio to elements (or whether it was discussed on the original mailing list, which was before my time), but that's the kind of idea that seems to me to be one of the more obvious possibilities. I've blogged about it also, and even though I came to the thought on my own, I don't ask any credit for the general idea (maybe the particulars, but not the idea itself) because it's one of those that I assume has crossed many minds, just as I assume many people see the folio as a map even if they haven't studied the VMS.
I still feel the same way about my D'Imperio and Hyde/Rugg comments, however. D'Imperio's comment is too old to be relevant to the map folio and they shouldn't have used it, and the Hyde/Rugg example was a bad example (at least the way they worded it).
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - Mark Knowles - 05-10-2019
(05-10-2019, 12:36 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, I know you've been working on this in a dedicated way and you are also honest about crediting which parts of the ideas you got from Nick. I have no doubt you are really trying to solve it, not just trying to get something published that makes it look like you're ahead of the pack (which is the impression I get from this paper which seems superficial and which credits a lot of out-of-date sources and none of the recent ones).
When I first investigated the 9 rosette page, with the view to it possibly being a map, I thought it likely that the place of origin of the author would be included on the map and potentially highlighted in the broadest sense or in some way given undue prominence. Having coming to the idea that it was an itinerary map or a map of a journey then I thought it even more likely that the place where the author came from would be clear as a journey has a start and an end. I had a big hope that by identifying this place one might be able to identify the author. Now if one identified the place of origin as say Chigaco, for example, then it wouldn't help a lot as Chicago is a huge city and there would therefore be a huge number of people that it could be. But I must admit that I hoped there would be a location smaller and more specific from which one could find a shortlist of possible authors. Also if I was very fortunate indeed then that shortlist might consist of just one person. Now there is a lot of hoping and wishing here, but that should at least give an idea of why the page being a map could be very significant.
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - -JKP- - 05-10-2019
My very first thoughts upon seeing the rosettes page were either that it was a record of a journey (like a visual journal), or an itinerary map in strip-map form, or possibly a reference to Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem (or maybe Rome). It has always looked like a map to me.
I had a very literal interpretation of it for a long time. Now I'm trying to look at it in as many different ways as possible.
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - Mark Knowles - 05-10-2019
(05-10-2019, 07:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My very first thoughts upon seeing the rosettes page were either that it was a record of a journey (like a visual journal), or an itinerary map in strip-map form, or possibly a reference to Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem (or maybe Rome). It has always looked like a map to me.
I had a very literal interpretation of it for a long time. Now I'm trying to look at it in as many different ways as possible.
My interpretation is pretty literal, though I am not quite sure what one means by literal as in my interpretation there are distinctive features such as the central rosette representing a significant thing or an important person. I have my own idea about what I term as "rays" which emanate from the central rosette to the four side rosettes, so that is a little different. The centre side rosettes I view in 3 cases as representing a feature at a location whether it be a rose window or a ceiling(In the other case I see it as a drawing associated with a location). But overall, yes, I still conclude it is a map despite its eccentricities.
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - Mark Knowles - 05-10-2019
(05-10-2019, 07:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My very first thoughts upon seeing the rosettes page were either that it was a record of a journey (like a visual journal), or an itinerary map in strip-map form, or possibly a reference to Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem (or maybe Rome). It has always looked like a map to me.
I had a very literal interpretation of it for a long time. Now I'm trying to look at it in as many different ways as possible.
To honest, it was really that page that sparked my interest and more specifically the "castle", it looked like a map of a fantasy world as though it was out of Lord of the Rings. In fact if it were carbon dating to the 20th century then I would say it was a fantasy map and not a real map. I was aware of the carbon dating, so I knew it was an ancient document otherwise I would have probably not paid so much attention to it, so to avoid the risk of wasting my time on a modern forgery. I found the script interesting. My initial thoughts were that it was a natural language in an unknown script, maybe like the Croatian Glagolitic script. However I came to conclusion that it was a cipher in a made up script. I have very little interest in plants or astrology and I haven't yet felt the need to delve in that area much. I have spent a lot of time studying diplomatic ciphers as is clear and my recent research has lead me to studying labelese as I have thought for some this area could be enlightening. Studying labelese has pushed my research in a specific direction. Unfortunately the current task I have found myself occupied with is slow and fairly tedious as it involves the manual inspection of data, I will get through it, but it will probably take some time. I thought it important to disseminate some of my ideas about the 9 rosette page, so others can see them if they have any interest, and it is easier here than on Nick's page as you can attach images. At some point I will go public with my whole theory of the page, but I don't feel ready to yet; part of the problem is that it has so many details that I was unsure how to present them and I haven't yet completed a long write up. Also, I don't think I will realistically be able to fit all my analysis in one paper for the Journal, even if I decide I think it a good idea to publish there.
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - -JKP- - 06-10-2019
I see things in manuscripts every day. Sometimes on a really good day, I see two or three things that I think are significant to the VMS.
But... it takes anywhere from four hours to eight years to write it up because I have to find and explain all the previous research that led up to RECOGNIZING that it was something special, or people simply disregard or disbelieve it. And that takes time, sometimes a lot of time (sometimes it takes months just to gather the different parts together because we can't always know at first if they are connected and we have to backtrack to find them again).
As an example... figuring out that the earth goes around the sun and not the other way around is much easier than CONVINCING people that the earth goes around the sun (this took centuries—every medieval western manuscript shows the sun orbiting the earth and anyone who suggested otherwise was in danger of being imprisoned... or worse).
It's not easy to go back through years of research to find all the images and other examples that demonstrate (that basically prove or illustrate) why a specific piece of information matters.
What I've learned from this is that finding things isn't the most difficult part—all you have to do is do the legwork (if it's on the Web, good researchers will eventually find it). Recognizing whether the similarity is superficial or significant is the real challenge and perhaps more important...being able to demonstrate and explain why they are significant so others can recognize it too is the biggest challenge, and the part that takes the most time.
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - Aga Tentakulus - 06-10-2019
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - nablator - 06-10-2019
(06-10-2019, 07:58 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, here's a map of a travel itinerary. ca. 1400Nice.
Wikipedia says 1310/11.
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RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - MarcoP - 06-10-2019
(06-10-2019, 09:03 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(06-10-2019, 07:58 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, here's a map of a travel itinerary. ca. 1400Nice.
Wikipedia says 1310/11.
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About You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it is also interesting that the Sun and Moon are used to mark cardinal directions. This could be the case in Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. As already mentioned, something similar (but with no moon) also happens in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: 9 Rosette - Specific Details - -JKP- - 06-10-2019
I haven't had a chance to read it all of it yet, I just glanced through the text, but the folio from the Zwettl abbey appears to me to be more of a map of holdings showing the major possessions of the abbey, rather than an itinerary map.
You know... that's not something I considered in relation to the VMS map... it didn't occur to me until just now that it might be a map whose general idea was to express "this is a schematic of the land that belongs to so-and-so".