(03-10-2019, 09:00 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 08:52 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 08:45 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

So now I am trying to look at it in more flexible ways. Maybe real, maybe partly real, maybe partly cosmological or mythical. Maybe not quite so literal a map as I first (and probably wrongly) assumed.

Yes, it is true that I have quite a literal map interpretation and specific corresponding locations, some influenced by Nick Pelling's interpretation. Though I do not view the central rosette as being part of the map in the sense that I do not view it as a physical location. Similarly my own perspective as I have stated clearly before is that the page shows what could be described a circular journey strip map or return map of a journey or itinerary map of a journey to and back from a location or however is best that one could describe it. As such the central rosette does not constitute part of the interlinked strip map.

I agree with much of what is described at the top of Nick Pelling's 9 Rosette Page post, namely the two suns representing East and West I.e. the rising sun and setting sun with the far bottom left corner showing a compass pointing north. Similarly the text flowing around the page that Nick illustrates fits well I think with a circular itinerary map.

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I like the link to "regional" map as it shows a T/O map in the corner indicating the rest of the world, as I think we see in the top right corner of the 9 Rosettes page
->

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(03-10-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also noticed something rather important. Even if they were illustrating something from an exotic place or a different culture, they OFTEN drew it in terms of their own culture. For example, sometimes Africans were drawn as black, but not always, and the King of India would sometimes be drawn like a white guy (like a Northern European) with a long beard. The only "Indian" thing about him was his turban. The same with architecture. Sometimes they drew eastern domes, but often they drew European castles to represent eastern places.

(03-10-2019, 12:10 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Like swallowtail merlons in Cairo: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

(03-10-2019, 12:10 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also noticed something rather important. Even if they were illustrating something from an exotic place or a different culture, they OFTEN drew it in terms of their own culture. For example, sometimes Africans were drawn as black, but not always, and the King of India would sometimes be drawn like a white guy (like a Northern European) with a long beard. The only "Indian" thing about him was his turban. The same with architecture. Sometimes they drew eastern domes, but often they drew European castles to represent eastern places.

Like swallowtail merlons in Cairo: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

(03-10-2019, 12:57 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 12:10 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also noticed something rather important. Even if they were illustrating something from an exotic place or a different culture, they OFTEN drew it in terms of their own culture. For example, sometimes Africans were drawn as black, but not always, and the King of India would sometimes be drawn like a white guy (like a Northern European) with a long beard. The only "Indian" thing about him was his turban. The same with architecture. Sometimes they drew eastern domes, but often they drew European castles to represent eastern places.

Like swallowtail merlons in Cairo: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

That image is quite curious as it also shows a shield with a black eagle on it, which was often associated with the Holy Roman Emperor, although the Holy Roman Empire was far from Egypt and I assume had no involvement there. I don't know what the symbol on the other shield represents.

(03-10-2019, 01:11 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 12:57 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 12:10 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-10-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also noticed something rather important. Even if they were illustrating something from an exotic place or a different culture, they OFTEN drew it in terms of their own culture. For example, sometimes Africans were drawn as black, but not always, and the King of India would sometimes be drawn like a white guy (like a Northern European) with a long beard. The only "Indian" thing about him was his turban. The same with architecture. Sometimes they drew eastern domes, but often they drew European castles to represent eastern places.

Like swallowtail merlons in Cairo: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

That image is quite curious as it also shows a shield with a black eagle on it, which was often associated with the Holy Roman Emperor, although the Holy Roman Empire was far from Egypt and I assume had no involvement there. I don't know what the symbol on the other shield represents.

Having looked more closely at the text accompanying the drawing I wonder if the description is correct about it referring to al fustat in Cairo as it appears to say "al fructex(c?). My knowledge of latin is poor, so I wonder if someone wants to check that as I have noticed mistakes made before with labeling manuscript pages. It mentions "arabice", so that would fit.

It could well be correct, but I would be curious to see if someone can verify it as the whole page is rather odd then.

(03-10-2019, 02:08 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is another garden on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with merlons but without the towers, with vms-like containers or water wells for the balsam this time.

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Also i couldn't find the Paris version but maybe it would shed some light?

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Full digital coverage available for this manuscript: see Digitised Manuscripts at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
This manuscript is classified by Baumann as one of the 'North Italian group' and as a copy of Paris, Bibliothèque de l'Ecole des Beaux-Arts, MS Masson 116; see also Collins 2000 pp. 279, 226 n. 71.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is another view of the garden[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://mobile.twitter.com/red_loeb/status/1127521725497970688[/font]

Quote:I like the link to "regional" map as it shows a T/O map in the corner indicating the rest of the world, as I think we see in the top right corner of the 9 Rosettes page

Quote:Referring to the page which is the same or similar to the text in his book:

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I find the following passage interesting and relevant->

"However, some medieval regional maps owed nothing to classical models and drew neither their inspiration nor their coastal outlines from world maps or portolan charts. In north Italy a distinctive tradition of regional maps grew up in the later middle ages, a tradition that seems to have been independent of any outside source or precedent. More than a dozen of these maps survive, and there are contemporary references to others that are now lost. The earliest dates from 1291, but most are of the 15th century. Some are of quite a small area, such as one of Lake Garda, some are of broader scope and two cover the whole of Lombardy. They are in varied styles; what was peculiar to north Italy was the idea of drawing regional maps of any sort, not a tradition of drawing them in a particular way."

Especially the sentence->

"[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]In north Italy a distinctive tradition of regional maps grew up in the later middle ages, a tradition that seems to have been independent of any outside source or precedent."[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]This would be consistent with a unique style of representation of a map.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I should add that I have not seen many of the more than a dozen Northern Italian Regional maps that Prof. Harvey refers to and the references to no longer surving maps. I have been meaning to track these down, but have not yet done so. Regarding this he says:[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]More than a dozen of these maps survive, and there are contemporary references to others that are now lost."[/font][/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I think the following statement is consistent with the dating of the Voynich manuscript->[/font][/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The earliest dates from 1291, but most are of the 15TH CENTURY"[/font][/font][/font]

(03-10-2019, 04:25 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....