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Q13a - Architectural frames - Koen G - 29-08-2019
(Note: both VViews and JKP have written a lot about this subject, and there are also the Sozomeno drawings Rene posted, so see this as an addition rather than something completely new).
While browsing the Très Riches Heures illustrations (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) I noticed that the main drawings on certain pages had been framed with architectural elements. Pillars with statues on pedestals, sometimes wooden bows flanked by two figures spanning the top.
Examples:
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The role of these figures appears to be that of "thematically appropriate onlooker", for example with Job there are living Dead, with David armored knights. There often is a certain hierarchy in the figures' vertical position, with heavenly beings at the top (cfr. VM cloud band figures).
These rich frames are typical for books of hours of the first half of the 15th century. A turning point came in the 1450's with Jean Fouquet, who considered borders a waste of space and treated each manuscript page as a painter would his canvas. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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The nymphs in Q13A (using Claston's term) have some similarities with these architectural frames. They each stand like a statue on a base - free-floating nymphs are very exceptional). Some pages use the motif of the wooden beam on top. Some pages use pillars to connect them vertically, though the water makes them more like tubes. My personal impression is that the VM illustrator(s) took the main illustrations and tucked them away in what looks like an architectural frame. While they clearly allude to a style less rich than that of the Très Riches Heures, it is possible that they were imitating this manner of framing.
For me though (and this is where disagreement might arise), they really appear as illustrations in their own right, creating some tension between layout and contents.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - Linda - 30-08-2019
I think you yourself once pointed out that the paragraphs seem to follow along with the diagrams, and i agree that seems to be the case, for instance with the page shown, i think i can see a paragraph for each of the five separate drawings. Wouldn't that lean more towards the 'images in their own right' idea? Or that the images actually go with the text, as opposed to being simply decorative.
I think the perceived framing is just part and parcel of organizing the text and drawings, it is more likely for the text to be on the inside than surrounding diagrams in the middle, especially if there are more than one illustration within the page. In fact it is sort of the definition of quire 13a, is it not, that the diagrams are organized in this way. but there are also the rest, where it is the other way, just less often. Usually though, in those cases, it is one or two drawings only, which makes it easier to draw them centrally then write around them, than to put them on the outer edges and end up with wasted space. I dont think there are two quires, it is just how it worked out with the drawings versus the text for any certain page, but it seems to me like organizing the loose pages of an illustrated jack and jill book and deciding it is two separate books, one about jack, and one about jill.
Also, there appears to be a lack of architecture in the vms drawings, unless knee high vessels generally seeming to hold water count, at least for the examples shown. But i believe they are more indicative of natural formations myself.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - -JKP- - 30-08-2019
I don't think the VMS nymphs are onlookers (at least not all of them).
I think many of them are active participants. In my blog, I referred to them as "celestial engineers" because I think there are quite a few who are, in a sense, carrying out orders or engineering what happens below or within the frames.
It's like angels. In medieval belief systems, there were some angels at the top. They had names (Michael, Gabriel, Azariel, etc.). Then there were the more ephemeral ones who were believed to appear and to "dissolve" as needed, carrying out tasks in between, sending messages, blowing trumpets, raining hail and fire rain down upon the Earth. God's emissaries.
I think part of the reason many of the nymphs are in loges is because it's somewhat analogous to a cloudband, it marks a distinction between celestial beings and corporeal beings. Very frequently, in medieval illustrations, the celestial beings are seen only from the knees or waist or chest up.
I think something similar is going on with many of the nymphs—the ones flying around in loges have some special status. It wasn't only angels who were treated this way in medieval art, saints were often portrayed on elevated pedestals, as well.
I think this is why "loges" or cloudbands are used in medieval genealogy diagrams. The people in the pictures are no longer alive, they are of the spirit (presumably in heaven) and have a special status as ancestors (ancestor status is particularly high in eastern cultures).
Also, the "explainers" in some manuscripts, the ones holding scrolls with information about what is going on in the center are sometimes shown only from the waist up, as well (sometimes with cloudbands). This lets the viewer know they are not real people (not part of the main action), but are revealing the action (or carrying out the task of making it happen). They are like sages from the past.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - Linda - 30-08-2019
My take on the nymphs is as the collective human presence over time in the areas outlined.
Thus i agree they are spirits in that sense, however some of those they represent could be those societies living in those places at the time of creation of the manuscript. In that sense they would still represent a conglomerate spirit, but of those still living. To that end their scale is appropriate, they are much larger than actual humans would be.
Most civilizations developed around shores of lakes and oceans, especially near river deltas, due to best access to food and water. Once settled in, architecture starts to develop over time as well. However i don't see the vms focusing on this aspect other than referencing by use of the decorated tubs in the zodiac section, which seems only to be included in the most recent ages, or by inclusion of some buildings in the rosettes. I can't think of any examples of architecture in quire 13 itself, other than decorated loges, as JKP calls them, which i see as being geological in nature, rather than architectural.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - Koen G - 30-08-2019
My opening post was not really about what I think the nymphs are (that's rather complex, but known to most), but rather what I think may have served as a template for their layout, and the architectural appearance of certain bases.
Something like the top-right figure on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is almost exactly what statues stand on.
![[Image: image.jpg?q=f82v-1277-119-193-380]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?q=f82v-1277-119-193-380)
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - -JKP- - 30-08-2019
(30-08-2019, 07:47 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My opening post was not really about what I think the nymphs are (that's rather complex, but known to most), but rather what I think may have served as a template for their layout, and the architectural appearance of certain bases.
Something like the top-right figure on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is almost exactly what statues stand on.
Well that was kind of the point I was making. I must have worded it badly... Those of elevated status (angels, saints, sages), were depicted on loges and pedestals in medieval art.
In addition to the "zoomers" in manuscripts, I was thinking of this kind of pedestal—the kind that is "elevated" so that it looks like it's floating on the sides of buildings rather than being on the ground. Many of the nymphs are in "floating" loges (they are like bartizans as opposed to ground pedestals):
And here's the simplified illustrative version of the idea of saints and sages on pedestals and cloudbands providing information. The way they are cut off at the middle (or standing on a pedestal) is a way of denoting higher status or wisdom. It's the manuscript version of "elevated" saints and sages (elevated in the metaphorical sense since not all illustrators had the space, or were capable of drawing the fancy pedestals and architectural wonders that appeared in some of the better Flemish and French art)
And here is the same idea applied to angels with their lower half cut off.:
Image credit: detail from Wikipedia
I don't think it's possible to completely separate the way the VMS nymphs are drawn from what they represent (unless they represent something completely different in the VMS from everything else in medieval art).
I don't know specifically what they represent, but if they are a product of the medieval age and consistent with medieval iconographical traditions, then the "zoomers", the platforms and bartizans that elevate the nymphs and especially if they hide the lower part of their bodies, give them special status which, in medieval iconography, usually means they are conferring information or carrying out orders or standing by to give something more importance (most of which are not passive activities but active engagement with the viewers).
So we can talk about what the nymphs are on another thread, but that's what I think the zoomers are... I think they are like elevated pedestals, especially like the ones I posted that are high up on buildings.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - davidjackson - 30-08-2019
I've been saying for years that the illustrator was influenced not only by manuscript tradition but by his surroundings.
Whether it be the Germanic calendars that influenced the zodiac signs, the portable vademecums that influenced the fold-outs, the religious sculptures that influenced the nymph design: JKP's loges image above fits into this theory nicely.
Seriously, as soon as you move away from pure manuscripts and start looking at the surroundings of a north western European educated man of the early to mid 15th century, you start seeing all these influences that fit nicely into the VM.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - -JKP- - 30-08-2019
I agree, David.
I didn't fully appreciate this until I figured out a few years ago that zodiacs appeared to originate on church architecture long before they made their way into manuscript illustration. That's when I realized that other aspects of manuscript art came from sculpture, as well. A lot of it.
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - davidjackson - 30-08-2019
We (naturally enough) tend to assume that manuscript work was the main thrust of imagery development, simply because that's our main resource for the era, and we have this mental imagery of monks faithfully copying early generations like some sort of photocopying machine.
Of course it wasn't like that.
People innovated, and they drew their inspiration from their surroundings. Much of the cultural inspiration is now lost to us, whether that be books of secrets, calendars, manuscript jottings, street theatre or garden layout. All we have all the sculptures (which aren't familiar to most lay audiences), paintings and manuscripts, which can now easily be seen online. Arguably, all three were reflectors of culture rather than innovators. People drew their inspiration for innovation from their surroundings, then laid them down in their paintings or manuscripts. We moderns then reverse the process.
It's a trap, people!
RE: Q13a - Architectural frames - -JKP- - 30-08-2019
(30-08-2019, 09:18 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We (naturally enough) tend to assume that manuscript work was the main thrust of imagery development,
I am completely 100% guilty of this kind of thinking until I started researching the evolution of zodiacs. That was the eye opener. It became apparent to me that the influences for manuscript art came from mosaics, sculptures, and frescoes. I know that now. But it took me numerous years to realize it.
Edit [addition]: and fabric arts, I forgot to include that, fabric was furniture and art in the middle ages. It was used to create walls and partitions, canopies, wall hangings. It was all around people, along with the mosaics, sculptures, and frescoes.