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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-08-2022
The glyphs that make up the script cannot be reduced to an alphabet. Transliteration systems leave out many glyphs. Jim Reeds made a catalog of these rare symbols. They are reproduced on the ReneZ website.
What happens is that the VM script is iconic in nature. I mean, the scribe or scribes try to graphically reproduce celestial movements. There are benched gallows that have a glyph c underneath, between the c's of the bench. It is the iconic way of representing the transit of the Moon. There are also gallows that have a glyph c under the legs. The t and k gallows have the c under the right leg. In the case of p and f gallows (lunar nodes), the glyph c, the Moon, is under the left leg.
Everything seems to be a game that simulates a language with words made up of astronomical symbols.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 05-08-2022
(05-08-2022, 03:57 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Everything seems to be a game that simulates a language with words made up of astronomical symbols.Have you come across anything similar in ancient manuscripts?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 06-08-2022
(05-08-2022, 03:57 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The glyphs that make up the script cannot be reduced to an alphabet. Transliteration systems leave out many glyphs. Jim Reeds made a catalog of these rare symbols. They are reproduced on the ReneZ website.
What happens is that the VM script is iconic in nature. I mean, the scribe or scribes try to graphically reproduce celestial movements. There are benched gallows that have a glyph c underneath, between the c's of the bench. It is the iconic way of representing the transit of the Moon. There are also gallows that have a glyph c under the legs. The t and k gallows have the c under the right leg. In the case of p and f gallows (lunar nodes), the glyph c, the Moon, is under the left leg.
Everything seems to be a game that simulates a language with words made up of astronomical symbols.
"There are benched gallows that have a glyph c underneath, between the c's of the bench. It is the iconic way of representing the transit of the Moon." That is a good example to use to illustrate your reading Antonio. I can see how it would operate. But while I can see it in particular cases, even whole 'vords', I cannot imagine how or why it works across a whole text, or even paragraphs. Strings of astrological configurations arranged to look like words. There must be wider organising principles. And what, then, is going on in the ms. as a whole? Can you provide a global explanation for the apparent astrological configurations we might be seeing in particular cases? I can't think of (or imagine) another text like that. It would need a compelling context (or subtext) to explain it, or just to make it more plausible.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 06-08-2022
I read your paper Antonio and think your proposal is worth considering. Since it concerns astronomical observations, I want to add this complication:
On the evidence of the map, and arguably other things, the manuscript might specifically concern alpine regions. If that is so, then we should consider that observing the sky on a mountain is very different to on the flat plains near sea level. Mountain astronomy is different. The mountain is the prevailing symbol. A mountain is a big sun-dial, for a start. I think there are things in the Voynich best explained as part of a mountain cosmology. Might this be reflected in your astronomical (or astrological) script?
Strategically, I don't think you need to spend a lot of time arguing that Voynichese is not a language. You just have to demonstrate that it IS a sequence of astronomical coordinates, whatever else it might be.
On your reading, the core of the work must be the Star Section at the end, since it is essentially concerned with herbal star lore. I tend to agree with that. Lines of correspondence end in particular stars. I find it a conspicuously stellar (rather than planetary) astrology.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 06-08-2022
(06-08-2022, 04:41 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mountain is the prevailing symbol.Thanks for the link to your blog. Unfortunately you only explain the symbolism of mountains in your videos? Do you have a text, easier to translate?
P.S. You chose the word qokechy for the title, is it Ladin? What do you think it means?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 06-08-2022
Hermes777, you like to talk about the context. And you're right. The best context to understand the VM is the medieval mindset. To anyone who understands medieval thought about the cosmos and nature, the solution I give will not seem crazy.
It is the heavenly influence that gives herbs their medicinal virtues. This is something natural to the medieval mind and this is what we see reflected in the Voynich.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 06-08-2022
(06-08-2022, 11:35 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(06-08-2022, 04:41 AM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mountain is the prevailing symbol.Thanks for the link to your blog. Unfortunately you only explain the symbolism of mountains in your videos? Do you have a text, easier to translate?
P.S. You chose the word qokechy for the title, is it Ladin? What do you think it means?
Ruby, here is the text of the video 'Luminous Peaks':
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This symbolism is central to my entire reading of the manuscript. I cannot stress how important it is.
I chose 'Qokechy' at random as a typical Voynich word (even though it is actually a rare word.)
By the way, Ruby, I value your continuing exploration of possible Greek influences in the text. In my Cusean hypothesis, when Nicholas of Cusa arrives in the County Tyrol as bishop he has just been involved in desperate attempts to heal the breach with the Greek church as a means of stopping the Turkish advance. Greek/Latin unity was one of Cusanus' central preoccupations. The context and background that I see in the Cusean hypothesis would allow for a possible Greek plaintext or Greek influence. Like others I doubt it is a one-to-one transcription, but some of your suggested Greek parallels are uncannily suggestive. Thanks.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Hermes777 - 06-08-2022
(06-08-2022, 12:11 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hermes777, you like to talk about the context. And you're right. The best context to understand the VM is the medieval mindset. To anyone who understands medieval thought about the cosmos and nature, the solution I give will not seem crazy.
It is the heavenly influence that gives herbs their medicinal virtues. This is something natural to the medieval mind and this is what we see reflected in the Voynich.
Yes, we face great conceptual difficulties when studying a work like the Voynich. The medieval mind - and the premodern mind generally - had the habit of thinking in terms of parallelisms and ratios. Not only do we not think like that, we don't even appreciate that we don't think like that. It is a long, hard process for modern minds to reacquire those habits and we can only approximate it because we are not embedded in a corresponding cosmology.
So the type of astronomical system you propose seems outlandish to the modern mind, but it would be quite in line with premodern cosmological thought. In fact, I think it is more extensive in the manuscript than just connecting herbs with stars: there are wider parallelisms. There are parallels between water and light, for instance, that are entirely unsuspected by modern thinking.
In Voynich literature I see people really struggling with premodern ideas. The notion of nympha as personifications of the animating forces of the World Soul is especially alien to us, but to the premodern mind it is as natural as angels.
I would like to know more about how you think the text was generated using a system of wheels.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 08-08-2022
I believe that the authors would use a system of wheels similar to this drawing that we see in one of Giovanni Fontana's works.
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The title of the work: Secretum de thesauro experimentarum ymaginationis hominum is very appropriate also for the Voynich because that is what it is about, the imagination of man.
The VM glyphs were written on wheels like these and the author or authors only had to move them, according to rules unknown to us at the moment, to produce the vords
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 10-08-2022
The lesson to be learned from this painting is very valuable. The Garden of Paradise is a contemporary work of the Voynich and made in its geographical area.
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There are about 25 flowering plants and all of them have been identified. The painter has made them realistically. In other words, it is a time when plants were painted in a very real way. Why didn't the authors of the VM do so?
It is possible that what the authors of the Voynich wanted to paint were also the flowers of paradise. But in this case, very special flowers that they did not know and that they had to imagine.