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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 27-04-2022
(26-04-2022, 04:47 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello René:
Somewhere you have written that the Voynich could simply be a catalog of stars. That is what I think. I think anyone who has studied the images in the book for years and knows enough about medieval thought can come to the same conclusion.
But it is only when this conclusion is reached that the mind opens. It is when one, as is my case, begins to think that the script that looks like a language or an encrypted language may just be a system of symbols to locate the stars in the sky.
In this system, logically the entropy is very low because it is about reproducing celestial positions and movements with symbols that are repeated over and over again with few variations.
Dear Antonio,
what you are referring to is probably the following:
I consider that the zodiac part of the Voynich MS refers to the degrees of the zodiac. There are 30 for each sign, so each 'nymph holding a star' represents one degree.
The more hypothetical part of this consideration is that each degree of the zodiac is being associated with one star.
This was done in classical astronomy, e.g. looking at stars rising at the same time as the particular degree of the zodiac. But there are other possibilities: star longitudes were expressed this way as well.
In this hypothesis, the different number of points of each star held by the nymph is a measure of its brightness (magnitude). The posture of the nymph might indicate other properties of the associated event.
There are some tantalising 'coincidences', but I have not been able to find any usable evidence that all this is correct.
(I wish that future proposers of Voynich solutions would memorise this last sentence and keep it in mind always).
All the other parts of the MS for are just what they look like, or, alternatively, were meant to look what they look like.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 27-04-2022
(27-04-2022, 12:34 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All the other parts of the MS for are just what they look like, or, alternatively, were meant to look what they look like.
This is an important addition, in my opinion. The MS looks like a medicinal compendium, so if it is not that, we must take into account the fact that it was made to look like that.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-04-2022
Dear René,
Specifically I was referring to these words you said in 2016 in the thread 'Why the Voynich Zodiac- isn't', opened by David Jackson:
I haven't yet given up on my old theory that the stars represent actual stars in the sky, in the sense of paranatellonta, or a star catalogue, but I certainly can't demonstrate it convincingly enough, so it'll have to stay at the level of one of many ideas.
I understand your caution, but I am not so cautious because for me the Zodiac and its complementary section, Quire 13, are the key to the book. Of course the other parts of the book are what they look like, a medicinal compendium, but the zodiac and Quire 13 are the sections that explain why we see herbs that are not real and a set of cosmological diagrams in a magic herbarium.
The message is that each herb corresponds to a star. It is what we see in the last section wrongly called Recipes and it is what helps to interpret a text that is not a text, but a simple way of reproducing the celestial influences on medicinal herbs through a system of symbols.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 27-04-2022
(27-04-2022, 04:13 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The message is that each herb corresponds to a star. It is what we see in the last section wrongly called Recipes and it is what helps to interpret a text that is not a text, but a simple way of reproducing the celestial influences on medicinal herbs through a system of symbols.Antonio, do you mean that there are similarities in the "text" between the "recipes" and "zodiac" sections?
RE: No text, but a visual code - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 28-04-2022
Perhaps the focus is too much on the astronomical meaning of stars while the images throughout the VM are suggestive of an allusion to spiritual. In Greek mythology, some people had turned into stars after their death. This is interesting, because according to ancient Illyrian belief, people's souls were transported into stars after their death. This was also the medieval belief of the Bogomils, a dualistic sect (similar to Cathars) in Bosnia and Northern Italy. Many expressions, even in Slovenian language, are related to the stars, like: a comet means that another soul is ascending to the stars; if a person is knocked unconscious, the expression 'he saw the stars' is used. This is clear indication that this was a reference to a mystical religious experience, and that Bogomils explain 'heaven' as a spiritual state of mind, akin to mystical experience. There is an interesting inscription on one of the Bosnian tumbstone (steček) explaining that the deceased 'went to the stars and found nothing there, but when he came back, he found himself' (my rough translation).
There is a lot of star imagery in the works of medieval artists and mystics, like in the works of Hildegard of Bingen and Henry von Laufenberg (Regiment of Health). He placed one set of Zodiac on the earth, and another one in the heavens (among the stars).
This indicates that the subject of Zodiac and astrological fortunetelling was being challenged and eventually, the saints replaced the Zodiac signs.
There is also another peculiar thing in the VM zodiac - two animals are holding the star: salamander and fishes. Salamander was known as Bogomil sacred symbol. It was used all over Europe.
As for the stars next to the text: It seems unique to mark the paragraphs with a star. In the medieval Slovenian book, the author explained that the stars are the markers in the books. It could be that they were used in some pre-Protestant texts that did not survive during the Counter-reformation.
This are just a few ideas I came across.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 28-04-2022
Ruby, you asked me something about the text. My opinion is that there is no text, nothing that we can read as we can read in a book. For me it is a simulated text, that is, groups of glyphs that simulate words. The authors of the VM wanted to simulate a language, but not just any language but a magical one.
I think this because in the images what we see is a representation of the occult powers of nature: the way in which medicinal herbs obtain their virtues from the stars. The authors of VM could not express this with any language, but with an invented one that represented that natural magic.
Do those groups of glyphs make sense? Yes for them: they are symbols with which the authors reproduce celestial objects, positions and movements in the sky.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 28-04-2022
(28-04-2022, 05:49 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do those groups of glyphs make sense? Yes for them: they are symbols with which the authors reproduce celestial objects, positions and movements in the sky.If these glyphs were used to indicate the position of stars, they can be decoded then?
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 28-04-2022
Does the VMs language make sense? There are two possibilities. Why not use both of them??
If there is a clear tendency to secrecy and disguise and to deception, why not use both? Irrelevant and nonsense texts appear frequently, and the sensible and significant parts have been hidden away. A set of circular text segments have been marked with Stolfi's markers. And within this set there are makers of varying complexity, each with its own text segment. The selection of specific segments can be further determined by other factors (heraldry, religion etc.)
The circular text around the wreath of VMs f86v4 is problematic because of the secondary 'line of separation' noted at one o'clock. Is the gap an indicator of division or something to be ignored? The most frequent vord in this text is EVA 'otedy'. Whatever this vord represents, it is clearly the thing most in need of repetition.
If a translation of the VMs is proposed, what text would be more important than a random choice? The markers are built into the structure. That is not the question. Are they meaningful? That is the question. And to answer is to respond to the Genoese Gambit, the historical heraldic combination of red hats and blue stripes on VMs f71r.
Consider the conjunction of marker and tub pattern to be an intentional indicator, connecter and promoter.
Proposed translations need to select specific segments of text and provide a "reasonable" interpretation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 28-04-2022
Hello Ruby, you were asking me if the glyphs can be decoded. Of course it is, it is a system with meaning for those who made the book.
The main symbols that represent the stars are EVA-o, EVA-a and EVA-y. When they are transliterated into letters, something fundamental is lost, that they all have the same round shape. The second and the third with a small tail and a larger one. They are not related only by their form but are also complementary in the structure of the script. Where one is, the other is not.
These symbols, which are the main ones because they place the stars in the sky, around the ecliptic line, are interspersed with the others, which represent either positions or other celestial objects such as the moon: EVA-e. Another symbol that when transliterated loses its crescent shape.
In general, the structure of symbols keeps some rules but it is flexible, which is why there seems to be more than one language: Currier A and B. Each scribe that intervenes applies the same mechanism: each one forms groups of symbols with a disk system overlapping, but with certain variants
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 28-04-2022
(28-04-2022, 08:54 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the structure of symbols keeps some rules but it is flexibleI'd just like to know if in the four years of this thread you've managed to identify anything new about the stars or is this a hopeless way out?