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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 18-04-2022
(18-04-2022, 01:33 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Everything else would be too short-sightedSorry, I didn't quite understand your comment: are you disputing the term "anatomy" or the term "plants"?
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 18-04-2022
(18-04-2022, 02:14 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, I didn't quite understand your comment: are you disputing the term "anatomy" or the term "plants"?I am only in favor to consider the representations in Quire 13 not simply as "anatomy" or "plants", but as the representation of a transformation process (separation ?) of substances ( see picture examples ). I would see the whole thing from an alchemical point of view, but there are certainly other possible interpretations ( e.g. pharmaceutical ).
RE: No text, but a visual code - Ruby Novacna - 18-04-2022
(18-04-2022, 02:49 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....consider the representations in Quire 13 not simply as "anatomy" or "plants"...Okay, calling this section "baths" or "anatomy" doesn't describe everything that goes on in it, but talking about plants takes us away from the solution, in my opinion.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 18-04-2022
It's the ongoing dilemma of VMs investigation. Are those illustrations representative of factual information or are they just idiosyncratic doodles? What does the VMS artist really know? And how much is fill-in and just guessing?
The number of potential religious references in the VMs might lead to a question regarding the intensity of the artist's religious belief. In that, it was said that Colette of Corbie had visions. Perhaps she was not the only one to do so.
On the other hand, various potential, mythological interpretations in the VMs indicate that there are also certain influences from outside the Christian tradition. Melusine, Philomela, the Muses. So perhaps there is some moderation and combination of both.
The apparent flow of water in some illustrations has been compared to the historical "river of life" images. And of course, the Muses, nine ladies in a pool. While there is an obvious connection to bathing there is also a connection to the Muses and the works of Christine de Pizan. And she then connects to the Valois libraries of Berry and Burgundy. Her books are in the KBR. The trick is to find the *second* set of nine ladies in the VMs, but there are volunteers.
This section has so many subtle things: the double rainbow throne - temporarily vacant. And the Agnus Dei image in three parts. With these two references to Christian sources, there are Philomela and the Muses tied to Classical sources, and Melusine which fits with neither. The inclusion of the myth of Philomela has to raise the question of why this story was chosen. There was a version of this text in the Berry library with other relevant documents. As far as I know currently, Christine de Pizan did not use 'Philomela' or "Melusine.'
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 19-04-2022
R. Sale, I appreciate your medieval erudition but I think so much scholarly display obscures more than it clarifies.
In my opinion everything is simpler. Any member of this forum familiar with the medieval world, if you ignore the script and look at the imagery in the book as a whole, I think you will be able to see everything more clearly.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 19-04-2022
When I ignore the language and look at the imagery, as you suggest, the imagery divides itself into several separate groups; "plants", "planets", "zodiac", Quire 13, "pharmaceuticals", etc. So, I see the imagery in each of these sections as pretty much separate. Now I know there was this increasing phase of ideological syncretism in the 1400s, all that business about the stars' influence on the plants and the Zodiac Man, and there were all the sorts of sympathetic associations that led to the world of Ficino. So, it cannot be denied that such interpretations were present. Therefore, their presence in the VMs is a possibility. However, that is not the only thing that was going on in the C-14 dates.
Mariology was clearly on the increase in the 1400s. The increasing number of subtle religious references in the VMs clearly takes an open investigation beyond merely plants and stars. The history of the conflict between the reformations promoted by Colette of Corbie and those who resisted her changes brought accusations of heresy. All of this has ties to the state of Burgundy during the C-14 dates.
The VMs has a mysterious appearance. It's only when one can start to take it apart that one can see how it was put together. This type of demonstration is only possible for a limited set of examples. The interpretations can be fairly complicated in requiring historical details, however, there are several: the cosmos, Melusine, the Agnus Dei, New Jerusalem, the nebuly line and more that provide a historical or traditional explanation for what can be seen, strangely reflected in certain VMs illustrations.
The use of historical details requires the recovery of historical details. What is the armorial insignia of the pope who instituted the tradition of the cardinal's red galero? Heraldry plays a role in the VMs investigation, but it's complicated by the historical detail. That is to say, it is complicated by the absence of the historical data connection. That situation has been somewhat improved within the last decade.
A second difficulty, severely compounding the recovery of historical detail, is the use of obfuscation, the intentional creation of ambiguity. The use of dual interpretations, the combination of disparate images, or making a code shift are clear techniques of trickery, once the relevant, historical details have been recovered. The further investigation of these VMs illustrations shows visual alteration and structural confirmation. Structural details easily confirm identification when visual similarity is obvious. Clearly things don't work as well when the illustrations are disguised. And even more so if the investigational connections to the historical details are lacking. Clearly there are also limits to ambiguity. Blue stripes must still be blue. Structural details confirm ambiguous interpretations of appearance. But why were things disguised in the first place??
If there's a simple explanation for all of this, and that's all there is, what is it?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 20-04-2022
Colette of Corbie?
Melusine?
Agnus Dei?
cardinal's red galero?
I don't understand anything. I don't see anything like that in the Voynich. For me everything is much simpler and I have already said it so many times that I save saying it again.
R. Sale, you can defend what you want, but please do it in your own thread
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 21-04-2022
Not only in the Voynich are there female figures who personify stars. In this contemporary manuscript we see the Pleiades personified as women with a star above their heads.
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The Pleiades are with the constellation of the Lyra because according to Greek mythology they were the lyre of the Muses
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 21-04-2022
This is not necessarily a good analogy, since the Pleiades are explicitly female characters, they are women. This does not mean that stars in general were represented as women.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 22-04-2022
Yes, it is true, but there are also other manuscripts in which the Pleiades are represented without a star, as in this one:
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If in the manuscript that I put before the artist draws a star on the head of the women it is because he wants to emphasize that they are stars.
It's the same thing that happens in the zodiac section of the Voynich: The female figures hold a star.
Because the problem is not only Quire 13, but the zodiacal section. If those figures that hold stars in each degree of a stellar constellation are not personifications of stars, can someone in this forum tell me what the hell they are then?